Anchor Roller Installation

[Dimitri-2000X-Tampa]

Well, I finally bought one and pulled off the starboard cleat and the fairlead that used to be used for the furler so that I have enough space to install my hinged bow roller. But I seem to have quite the dilemma now and wondering what some of you who have installed a roller have done. Basically, if I position it so that is is mostly straight off of the end of the bow, it is not going to be able to fully travel downward in the hinged position because it is going to hit the bottom of the furling drum. Also, it is going to be so tight in there, I'm not sure if I will have enough room to pin and unpin the forestay when I'm trailering.

If I angle it off of the starboard side more so that it won't hit the furler, it is not going to be right for the predrilled holes in the roller base. Ie, the front hole will be off of the starboard side of the boat. So, that won't work unless I drill a new hole further back in the base (making the bolt triangle smaller and less structurally strong I suppose). Not to mention that the roller will end up being at about a 30 degree angle off of the bow versus 5-10 degrees off if I put it under the furler. Either way, it will be hard to see the starboard side of my bow light any longer without relocating that too.

I know some people have raised the furler higher, perhaps using one of those johnson levers or whatever they are called, but that seems like it will be a problem for my headsail luff length and I just got a new headsail a couple years ago so I'm not in the market for a new one.

So who else has been in this predicament and what did you end up doing to install the roller?

[Tomfoolery]

Raise the forestay, don't shorten it. Move the hound up to compensate.

And yes, you will have to relocate the bicolor sidelight unit, but maybe you could put it on a spacer. There are hanger brackets for bow rails. Or use a pair of them, one on each side - I've seen at least one boat with separate sidelights on this board, though I don't recall who did that.

Oh, and when you're done, post some pics. I'd like to do what you're doing, as my cheap-o Danforth knock-off doesn't even want to bite in hard sand. Not good, but a bow roller would give me a place to hang a Rocna-type new generation anchor.

[tlgibson97]

Check to see if adding a Johnson lever will give you the clearance you need. Move the forestay up on the mast to compensate for the added length. You'd get a bit more clearance and also have the lever to make pinning the forestay easier.

[Dimitri-2000X-Tampa]

Thanks for the replies. The problem is that I've already raised the forestay up on the mast by about 4 inches just to get out some of the mast rake cause it used to round up so bad. So I wouldn't feel good about raising it up any higher seeing as that would put a lot of lateral load on the mast above the shroud connections.

Looking at it again this morning, the other issue with having it be 30-35 degrees off of the bow is that it would kind of make it a left handed pull to line up with the roller...and I'm right handed. Much better pull for a rightie if its only 5 degrees off of the bow but then the furler will end up being too low. And since I got a Mantus 25 pounder (slightly optimized Rocna type) anchor with 20 feet of chain, that is going to be about a 50 lb weight so it probably is better to have a better right handed pull since I"m the windlass!

The Johnson lever will raise it up what, 6 or 8 inches which is going to be too much for the cut of the sail I think. If I had some sort of tang extender, just to extend it a couple inches, I don't think the sail would have to be modified. Its not likely to be good for the sailing since it raises up the sail somewhat, it will produce more heel. But the furler right now could travel up a couple inches without hitting the top of the forestay and without modifying the sail, but I suppose I would still have to shorten the forestay unless I can figure out some way to put a shorter turnbuckle on it or something like that. My guess is the stock buckle is already pretty short.

[Seapup]

Maybe some pics of the roller would help. How wide is it? If its extra wide maybe drill a hole and mount it right over the forestay tang? My chain beats the CDI cup, but it has held up OK.

Very interested to see how the 25lb mantus fits on the front. I have been very close to buying it a couple times. Its not a huge as the boss, but I was surprised at is size per mass. Its my top choice when I eventually upgrade.

Another thing to consider, try and keep the anchor mass as close to the bow as possible. I have been experimenting on moving bow weight around and it is pretty noticeable to me when in rough water. I ran a 4" pipe from the locker down through the V berth to the bilge next to the ballast tank to get chain mass lower.

[vizwhiz]

Dimitri, as i understand it, some people have mounted the roller straight (more or less) and removed the chainplate altogether, attaching the forestay to the side of the anchor roller structure instead. Moving that mounting point over the 1-2 inches likely has less effect than all the trouble you're having to go through...

[Dimitri-2000X-Tampa]

Thats an interesting option to mount the forestay right to the anchor roller..but alas, I would be worried about doing that for structural reasons too..afterall, the current tang is through bolted to the HULL, not the DECK...so, I would hate to change a fundamental design option like that...what if the deck is not properly attached to the hull, etc.

I'm going to play around a bit more with it over the weekend, I'm wondering if I can split the difference in the roller angle... Maybe somewhere around 10-20 degrees it won't be at too much of an angle, yet may clear the furler enough that I can still get my fingers in there to pin it. Because you see, I'm stuck in a quandry...I don't want the roller to hit the furler too much, but I really don't want to raise the furler or shorten the forestay either because that introduces other inefficiencies..ie, I'd be selling out whatever its called (maybe center of effort - where is Judy when I need her ) just to get the advantage of an anchor roller. Now granted, if I mount it like that, I won't be able to use one of the pre-drilled holes in the roller plate, but maybe that is the least of all the evils. Either that, or I figure out how to just shorten the forestay a very small amount.

Here is the pic of the roller...it is pretty big and beefy..to go along with the big and beefy new anchor.



I'm hoping to make a cruise down to the Keys in a month or two and give this new anchor a proper test.



And Seapup, its good to know that your CDI drum has held up well to a bit of abuse because one way or another, I think mine will end up getting abused in the final design. But another problem with mounting it right over the tang would be that now I would need even more height in the drum. Ie, not only would the side of the roller have to clear the furler, but when the anchor is on there, it would end up being even another 2-3 inches higher due to the shank of the anchor..whereas, if its mounted to the side of the furler, even though the roller bracket will hit the furler, the roller is wide enough that the anchor shank should be off to the side of the furler, not underneath it where it will need even more clearance.

[Seapup]

Is the problem only when roller hinges and flips up? If so what about just through bolting it flat so it does not hinge and running it straight forward... I know it would defeat the feature, but I can't envision the hinge being all that necessary since you will be up there retrieving it manually. Possibly even a nuisance while securing the anchor since there is not a windlass keeping tension and the hinge held down. With it fixed solid seems you could fine tune the roller location to where it would work on a mac. Also, how does the overhang proportion seem with only the hinge pad on the bow and anchor in the roller?

[Dimitri-2000X-Tampa]

It seems to have plenty of overhang and does have two holes to change the overhang proportion but I think I would leave it in the current setting which is maximum overhang. Best to have less chance of a swinging anchor impacting the hull during retrieval.

So originally I got the hinged one for a few reasons..like the back roller, and the fact that the base was pretty small compared to the roller so that I could get maximum roller on the tiny little 26X bow. Then, as I realized that I had to move the furling line to the port side in order to install the roller, I came up with this cockamamee idea to use the old furling guides and pulley as an anchor release line, my 25 foot floating 3/8 double braid will be attached to the little anchor reverse pull hole on the shank, so it could even free the anchor if it ever got stuck under a rock or something. So you see, with the hinging, the anchor can be self dropping. I can take the safety off of it and then as I singlehandedly back into a beach landing, I can drop the anchor from the cockpit like that.

So, if I put it relatively straight off of the bow, it won't "hinge" much anyway before the top part hits the furling drum and stops. The further I angle it away from the bow and the more that it clears the furler, the more it will drop down in the hinged position. In order to have the full hinge movement, I probably have to angle it at least 35 degrees off of the point of the bow...which I was trying to avoid...not to mention the fact that the base will have a smaller bolt triangle to bite into the tiny bow triangle.

It would be interesting to know if any right handers have a bow roller angled off 35-40 degrees and a heavy anchor to pull up. I'm concerned that the angle of the roller shaft starts getting too un-natural for a righty..would work great for a leftie though. Point is if the angle is too un-natural, then the rode is not impacting the roller shaft close to 90 degrees perpendicular and I'm kind of defeating the purpose of a roller.

[Seapup]

Restless has an offset hinged roller, Sounds like what you are getting into.:

http://www.ironengineer.com/mac/minimod ... index.html

I think I would leave it in the current setting which is maximum overhang. Best to have less chance of a swinging anchor impacting the hull during retrieval.

I have a some chips in the bow from retrieving my 22 delta plow by just pulling the chain vs lifting it in, it clears by about 3" when stowed. I debated putting on a stainless guard, but have not bothered. Instead after hitting the hull a few times I now guide the anchor in. It almost always needs washed anyways so I am up there dunking it a few times. The mantus rollbar looks like a perfect handle for guiding it in If I replace my roller I am going with the least overhang necessary to clear the bow when stowed. A long roller looks cool, but an arm with a 25lb weight off the bow is a considerable force on an and every inch is critical IMO. My experience is it leads to bouncing while sailing and the more you can minimize bouncing the better. It is especially noticeable in choppy water with short period waves.

I came up with this cockamamee idea to use the old furling guides and pulley as an anchor release line, my 25 foot floating 3/8 double braid will be attached to the little anchor reverse pull hole on the shank, so it could even free the anchor if it ever got stuck under a rock or something. So you see, with the hinging, the anchor can be self dropping. I can take the safety off of it and then as I singlehandedly back into a beach landing, I can drop the anchor from the cockpit like that.

Sounds good on paper.... You are still going to want to cleat it off after dropping to set it and then release again go to back up to the beach.

[dxg4848]

This is what mine looks like. I didn't need to raise RF.

[Dimitri-2000X-Tampa]

Nice setup dxg, love that windlass and relocated cleats, don't think I'll be that ambitious though. Maybe its an optical illusion, but the furler on the M looks a little bit higher than the X, also kind of looks like the tang is 90 degrees different than 26X which is somthing I had never noticed before.

Restless has an offset hinged roller, Sounds like what you are getting into.:

http://www.ironengineer.com/mac/minimod ... index.html

What a great site that is (and great modded mac, even with an oven), not just the pic of the offset hinged roller. Man, I'm really jealous of his trips to Greece...I'll have to keep an eye out for him on this board. As offset as that roller is, it makes me wonder if he is a leftie. I think I could get away with less offset, maybe somewhere between restless and dxg.

I have a some chips in the bow from retrieving my 22 delta plow by just pulling the chain vs lifting it in, it clears by about 3" when stowed. I debated putting on a stainless guard, but have not bothered. Instead after hitting the hull a few times I now guide the anchor in. It almost always needs washed anyways so I am up there dunking it a few times. The mantus rollbar looks like a perfect handle for guiding it in If I replace my roller I am going with the least overhang necessary to clear the bow when stowed. A long roller looks cool, but an arm with a 25lb weight off the bow is a considerable force on an and every inch is critical IMO. My experience is it leads to bouncing while sailing and the more you can minimize bouncing the better. It is especially noticeable in choppy water with short period waves.

Good advice..although can't see someone ever "replacing" a roller once its on there. And talk about claustrophobia, the bow has got to be the worst place to work on a Mac.

Sounds good on paper.... You are still going to want to cleat it off after dropping to set it and then release again go to back up to the beach.

Yes, I have pondered over that..but at least you can drop it in the right position. I was wondering if I take the chain out and then just let the locker hatch kind of lightly snub the rode, then maybe it will put enough resistance to semi set it before I can get back to the bow. Like you imply, it will be interesting to try in reality. I would also need to loosely tie off the release line to the chain somewhere near where the rope starts (20 feet of chain) so that it doesn't just float around aimlessly and get snagged by some passing boat prop. Anyway, I had read some horror stories of people getting their anchors stuck under concrete blocks out at the dry tortugas so figured maybe a anchor reverse pull system might be good. Of course, it would mean anchoring in water less than 20 feet deep but that is usually the case with a Mac anyways.

I guess I need to dril one of the rear holes first, bolt that on loosely and then move the roller (pivoting on the one bolt) until I get it right where I want it angle wise, then drill the last two holes, one which will also go through the metal of the roller base. I also figured I would relocate the starboard cleat right behind the furler (in between the roller and the port side cleat) but now that I see restless setup, I wonder if I should put it further back...although I don't know how accessible that area is from below. I notice he also has those bow lights on the side of the hulls which seems like an elegant solution..again, rear side accessibility may be an issue. Thanks again for all the responses, very helpful. I have looked through the mods section many times and it seems most people post pics of their rollers in the trailering position, with no furler. So its very hard to get an idea of how others have solved this problem.

[Highlander]

maybe adding a bowsprit like this pic & adding it onto it !
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j95/m ... /deck2.jpg

Hope this gives u some idea,s

J

[Seapup]

I guess I need to dril one of the rear holes first, bolt that on loosely and then move the roller (pivoting on the one bolt) until I get it right where I want it angle wise, then drill the last two holes, one which will also go through the metal of the roller base.

Should work, pick the best compromise location.

it seems most people post pics of their rollers in the trailering position, with no furler. So its very hard to get an idea of how others have solved this problem.

That is funny, I take my mast down once or twice a year and the only close pic I had in my photobucket is with it down I have changed a good bit but it gives a general idea. Roller is pretty tight to the forestay tang, the chain and anchor shank hits the cdi drum on the way in and out, but it fits.

Good advice..although can't see someone ever "replacing" a roller once its on there.

I am contemplating some changes and a new roller. This is the setup we have been using this year. Drifter&Spinnaker furler sprit is bolted to the anchor roller and also through the extra hole in the forestay tang. I have also messed with a longer sprit from 3' back the deck. The anchor regularly goes underwater while sailing when the waves are steep, I would not want the anchor weight any further out. Last weekend was rough so I pulled the anchor completely off before we left the anchorage. Even with it off the sprit furler was still regularly plowing into the face of waves when the boat slid into a trough. I am liking the furler up there though which is why I am thinking of getting a beefier roller and re doing the whole front end.

I also figured I would relocate the starboard cleat right behind the furler (in between the roller and the port side cleat) but now that I see restless setup, I wonder if I should put it further back...although I don't know how accessible that area is from below.

Its tight but workable in there. While in there maybe put on some extra cleats, get it all done at once. (nice if you use a bahama moor) Will your line run direct to the cleat (makes location important) when anchored or are you trusting the roller with the full load?

[Dimitri-2000X-Tampa]

Looks like both of you (Seapup and Highlander) have really nice setups with Sprits, extra forestays/sails/ets. Maybe one day I will get that ambitious but for now, just want to get the roller on there. Ended up getting too busy this weekend, not to mention a heck of a lot of rain in these parts. So maybe I will ponder over it for another week...a little extra time is always helpful in making the right decision before drilling. I'm going to go out there now and scope out the compromise position and see how it looks.

Regarding cleats, in that one pic (before the sprit), it looks like you have 4 on there. And you even seem to have one on the outside of your roller so that must be a really narrow roller. Mine must be close to 4 inches wide so that might be both good and bad. The place I was thinking about relocating my removed cleat to is about where you have a fairlead in that same pic...it would be a bit cramped, but should still be functional. Just eyeballing my vberth, it seems you would have to cut an access panel and go through the flotation compartment to mount those further rear cleats (same with those extra big cleats on Restless - which certainly do look nice though). I have adopted a (apparently age related) philosophy lately that I want to be out sailing my boat a lot longer than I"m working on it. I remember my O'day, man, I worked on that one far more than I ever sailed it...it seemed.. Anyway, that is why I try to minimize the amount of work for extra stuff (scope creep) although I do certainly understand what you mean by getting it all done at the same time for better economy of scale...and maybe one day when I'm also not working, raising a family..and now also taking grad school (man, all this stuff is seriously cutting into my sailing time..lol), I could get to some of this super cool stuff you guys are into.

As to your question about the line running directly to the cleat, I don't quite understand the implication because I would have thought that when you do run the anchor rode to a cleat, you are in fact trusting the roller arm with the full load. Maybe I would do that for a lunch hook or other temporary anchoring. But for overnight and with any wind, I bought one of those shockle things (I think that is what they are called) that is like a 2500 lb short bungee cord that I can attach to the lower bow eye (the one you use to winch it on the trailer) and then intersect the rode with this little loop line that they sell with the shockle. I saw some people using setups like that the last time I was in the Keys so I've bought the stuff to emulate it although I haven't tried it yet. But with that setup, there won't be any stress on the roller. The shockle will absorb stress from the rode (cause a 1/2 inch rode with chain seems a fairly stiff overkill for the bouncy clorox bottle that would probably be happier with a stretchier line) and the fact that it is attached lower down will put a better scope angle on the anchor as well. Here is the defender link that shows both the snubber and the line grabber...I can give a report on how all this stuff works when I get into serious cruising season on Oct/Nov seeing as everything is theoretical so far. http://search.defender.com/?expression= ... Trigger=ac