4 Furlers Mac 26M

[mastreb]

BOAT I think you're probably correct. I doubt the 26M would knockdown even without ballast. We should test it some time (on your boat)

As with everything else I've done wrong once, I did loft the sails, pull out the furler, and the boat tipped WAY over in light air. I immediately realized I hadn't ballasted the boat, so I released the genny sheets (which I had in hand) to right the boat and immediately pulled the gate valve up. It had stopped heeling before I released the sheet, but it moved scary fast and went way over.

My rule after that has been to leave the gate valve open by default on the trailer. Keeps the tanks dry and not smelly, and if anything gets forgotten, well at least there's water in the tank.

My boat runs very light, with all my mods being electronics. I was the only person aboard when it happened, and in the cockpit.

All of these roll-overs have one thing in common: 10+ passengers above deck. That is the real problem.

And yes, it's safer than most powerboats its size--especially if you were to power ballasted.

[NiceAft]

I thought I remembered Leon posting about being knocked down, so I did a search.

Ray

“ delevi » Sat Oct 01, 2005 8:06 pm
My second day out t San Francisco Bay on my new '05 , we were hit with 30+ mph winds which came out of nowhere. Up to that point, it was a mild, sunny day. It took maybe 5 minutes to build up and blaamoh, I was sailing in a gale. A strong gust hit and the boat was knocked down on its side with the boom in the water. I released the main sheet but it only came back up a bit. I made my way to the jib sheet, hanging on for dear life, and managed to release it. The boat came back up and rounded up into the wind. I spent the next day practicing reefing while on the trailer and bought a VHF radio so I can hear the marine forecast. That being said, I don't believe 45 degrees would define a knockdown. I sometimes hit 40-45 degrees and keep going, though this is my roundup threshold. Before taking out the mast rake, it was around 30-35 degrees.
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delevi
Admiral

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Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 3:03 am
Location: San Francisco Catalina 380, former 26M owner”

[Ixneigh]

I put 350 pounds of extra lead in the bottom of mine, right alongside the water ballast tank. It has little effect on initial stability, but will kick in handily at around 35/40 degrees of heel. My boat will round up uncontrollably at around 45/50 degrees. I have tried sailing with no ballast in, while the winds were light. There is little noticeable speed increase.

Ix

[Starscream]

I thought I remembered Leon posting about being knocked down, so I did a search.

Ray

“ delevi » Sat Oct 01, 2005 8:06 pm
My second day out t San Francisco Bay on my new '05 , we were hit with 30+ mph winds which came out of nowhere. Up to that point, it was a mild, sunny day. It took maybe 5 minutes to build up and blaamoh, I was sailing in a gale. A strong gust hit and the boat was knocked down on its side with the boom in the water. I released the main sheet but it only came back up a bit. I made my way to the jib sheet, hanging on for dear life, and managed to release it. The boat came back up and rounded up into the wind. I spent the next day practicing reefing while on the trailer and bought a VHF radio so I can hear the marine forecast. That being said, I don't believe 45 degrees would define a knockdown. I sometimes hit 40-45 degrees and keep going, though this is my roundup threshold. Before taking out the mast rake, it was around 30-35 degrees.
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delevi
Admiral

Posts: 2174
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 3:03 am
Location: San Francisco Catalina 380, former 26M owner”

I suspect the knockdown in this post happened because of the what a "gust" on SF bay can be. I rounded up once under full main and jib in "gusty" winds averaging about 20 mph (full ballast of course), and it was an almost mundane maneuver. It wasn't an instantaneous process, it probably took about 10 seconds for the wind to build and push the boat over, for the rudder to lose grip, and for the nose to swing into the wind. I would define that as a "gust", but on the other hand I had plenty of time and could have released the sheets if I had wanted to before the roundup happened. I estimate the wind was "gusting" between 15 mph and 25 mph, so 10 mph changes in wind speed but probably with at least 5 or 6 seconds between the minimum and the maximum speeds.

Under most conditions what many of us would call a "gust" gives plenty of time for the skipper to respond, or if he doesn't, for the boat to respond itself and round up. But that still takes a few seconds. If the "gust" is much more intense, as I suspect it was in the SF bay story, I can certainly see the boat not having time to react and pushing the boom into the water. There was another post somewhere on this board about a "bullet" of wind coming off some slopes and pushing the boat over on its side. So, I certainly believe both the X and the M can be knocked over under sail with full ballast, but it would take a very intense gust: far above anything that I have ever experienced in eastern Canada or the Northeastern US.

[NiceAft]

The velocity of wind needed to knock down an varies with the type of main you have. With the flat top main I have, there is more square footage of canvass than the stock Doyle main, and it's up high. I have to reef at lower wind velocities than I did with the stock main. Of course Nice Aft moves better in lower winds than it did with the stock sail.

Ray

[BOAT]

I thought I remembered Leon posting about being knocked down, so I did a search.

Ray

“ delevi » Sat Oct 01, 2005 8:06 pm
My second day out t San Francisco Bay on my new '05 , we were hit with 30+ mph winds which came out of nowhere. Up to that point, it was a mild, sunny day. It took maybe 5 minutes to build up and blaamoh, I was sailing in a gale. A strong gust hit and the boat was knocked down on its side with the boom in the water. I released the main sheet but it only came back up a bit. I made my way to the jib sheet, hanging on for dear life, and managed to release it. The boat came back up and rounded up into the wind. I spent the next day practicing reefing while on the trailer and bought a VHF radio so I can hear the marine forecast. That being said, I don't believe 45 degrees would define a knockdown. I sometimes hit 40-45 degrees and keep going, though this is my roundup threshold. Before taking out the mast rake, it was around 30-35 degrees.
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delevi
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Location: San Francisco Catalina 380, former 26M owner”

I do not believe this post. It's not believable for too many reasons. Releasing the jib would not do a thing once the main sail is in the water. When a sailboat capsizes the mast goes under - and then the rest is slow death. I have no clue who that guy was but he has never sailed on a MAC M boat as far as I am concerned and it's obvious to me that he has never experienced a real capsize on a sailboat. I have.

[BOAT]

The velocity of wind needed to knock down an varies with the type of main you have. With the flat top main I have, there is more square footage of canvass than the stock Doyle main, and it's up high. I have to reef at lower wind velocities than I did with the stock main. Of course Nice Aft moves better in lower winds than it did with the stock sail.

Ray

I don't care what kind of main sail you have there is nothing that is going to "knock down" the Mac M boat with ballast in it with a mainsail and jib, (MAYBE with a kite). Knocking down a MAC M boat is not possible with wind - you need WEIGHT, and lots of it on the TOP of the boat - this has already been established by the facts. It's all about weight and freeboard with the M boat - not the wind.

[grady]

The velocity of wind needed to knock down an varies with the type of main you have. With the flat top main I have, there is more square footage of canvass than the stock Doyle main, and it's up high. I have to reef at lower wind velocities than I did with the stock main. Of course Nice Aft moves better in lower winds than it did with the stock sail.

Ray

I don't care what kind of main sail you have there is nothing that is going to "knock down" the Mac M boat with ballast in it with a mainsail and jib, (MAYBE with a kite). Knocking down a MAC M boat is not possible with wind - you need WEIGHT, and lots of it on the TOP of the boat - this has already been established by the facts. It's all about weight and freeboard with the M boat - not the wind.

Spinnaker up high wind and a chinese jibe will broach any boat. To get the mast in the water will require a wave.

[BOAT]

The velocity of wind needed to knock down an varies with the type of main you have. With the flat top main I have, there is more square footage of canvass than the stock Doyle main, and it's up high. I have to reef at lower wind velocities than I did with the stock main. Of course Nice Aft moves better in lower winds than it did with the stock sail.

Ray

I don't care what kind of main sail you have there is nothing that is going to "knock down" the Mac M boat with ballast in it with a mainsail and jib, (MAYBE with a kite). Knocking down a MAC M boat is not possible with wind - you need WEIGHT, and lots of it on the TOP of the boat - this has already been established by the facts. It's all about weight and freeboard with the M boat - not the wind.

Spinnaker up high wind and a chinese jibe will broach any boat. To get the mast in the water will require a wave.

Yes, this is VERY VERY true!! And it's a very important thing to tell people. NEVER NEVER NEVER fly a kite in heavy wind!! Did you know that 70% of all race boat sinking are caused by running with a kite in heavy wind?? Yup - A spinnaker even 3/4 up the mast will pull over ANY BOAT - EVEN A BIG KEEL BOAT - even catamarans! right over on it's side and it will hold the boat down on it's side and drag the boat across the water on it's side filling it up like a bucket!! It's SO important to have a way to get that kite off the mast hound in an emergency - what happens is that the sail spins around and twists up the halyard right at the mast hound and then it will not release because it's twisted around the block - if that happens and then a big gust fills the bag you have no way to release the kite from the mast hound and you go flying with the kite. It happens so often you can even see pictures of it on you tube where people got caught in heavy wind flying a kite. It appears that most people find their headsail sheet under water at that point so they tend to focus on the only line they have left = the halyard - but it's twisted and stuck. The only way out is to go diving into the water and release the sheets. It's a situation that would put panic in the saltiest dog - I never want to experience it.

That is the only sail that will knock you down and keep you down. Be careful with those kites.

[NiceAft]

BOAT,

You may protest all you wish, but I have great respect for Leon and his sailing expertise.

Over the years some board members have had the oportunity to sail with him. I tried once, but the timing was off, but I believe Beene, Catigale and Highlander were more succesfull than I. Leon's opinion and reputation is respected.

I simply do not agree with you, and I am certainly not willing to test your theory . Let's simply agree to disagree.

Ray

[BOAT]

BOAT,

You may protest all you wish, but I have great respect for Leon and his sailing expertise.

Over the years some board members have had the oportunity to sail with him. I tried once, but the timing was off, but I believe Beene, Catagail and Highlander were more succesfull than I. Leon's opinion and reputation is respected.

I simply do not agree with you, and I am certainly not willing to test your theory . Let's simply agree to disagree.

Ray

No need to disagree - If you say it is so I believe you.

Since you vouch for Leon i must assume his story is true - so that leads to the obvious next question - was the ballast tank empty or full in his story?

[grady]

I have had mine over a couple of times, and been on other boats (J24, J80) that went over. Yes it was always racing in high winds. It is not that bad, however it was always with experianced crew. I will not fly my spin in high winds with out crew I can trust!

[grady]

Oh ya and you never cleat a spinnaker and have someone on the boom vang ready to blow it.

[Ixneigh]

All that sounds like way too much excitement for me.
Every time I've been on a boat where someone tried to use one of those sails something manage to get plucked up.

I think we should stick to the spreaders in the water definition of a knock down.
I've experienced conditions at anchor where my heavy keelboat was pushed right over with the side decks in the water. Not a knock down but scary. Something like that would put a Mac right over.
I certainly do hesitate to exclaim impossible where the ocean is concerned.
I also feel the macs design is inherently pretty safe if you can read and follow instructions as simple as don't light a smoke while gassing your car for example.

Ix

[BOAT]

I agree, the waves are big in storms and the waves make all boats flip over - any kind of boat can get flipped over in the bad storm waves.

It's not the wind that makes the boats tip over - it's the waves created by the wind. Wind alone on a normal sea can blow a boat over so that it's on it's side but there is a point at which there is no more boat exposed to catch enough wind. Now, in a gale storm (hurricane, Typhoon, etc) it's really a different story.

Take a plastic Easter egg and tape a bunch of coins inside of one end and close it up. Put the egg in the tub of water and blow air on it - you can blow air at the egg and make it stay on it's side but only for a little bit because the egg will drift away - that's what a boat does at sea - it moves. But if the egg has an anchor holding it in place it can't move away or drift and you can hold it on it's side by blowing.

At Anchor all boats are at more risk of a wind driven knockdown.

Back to the egg, start removing coins and see how much easier it is to "knock down" the egg by blowing on it, but still the egg pops up after it drifts away from your "wind" That's a normal wind reaction for a free floating object.

A gale force wind is a totally different thing. To get the concept just blow really really hard at the egg or hit it with your air compressor if you have OPD or something. You can blow the egg right out of the water - ballast, hull, flotation, none of that makes any difference in a real blow (hurricane) that's what happens in the storm, the light egg will get blown right out of the water unless you put a whole bunch of coins in, SO MANY coins that it makes the egg float deep and exposing very little freeboard - Heavy deep keelboats can take it better (their egg has more pennies) but in that kind of a blow all bets are off, anything can get thrown right out of the water.

Our boats are very light eggs with few pennies in the bottom. "A CLOROX BOTTLE" was the best description I every heard about the MAC M boat - that fits it pretty good. But that also sheds a lot of light on the whole knock down process that you will have in a MAC verses any other boat and probably explains why so FEW MACs have sunk. (Has ANY MAC sunk?) Yet we have thousand or reports of keel boats sinking. One MAC boat sinking in a production run of 10 thousand MACs is not statistically significant. But one sinking in a boat with only 100 in a production run is VERY SIGNIFICANT! That's a ONE PERCENT LOSS!!

Just going by the numbers the facts say that the keel boats are statistically MORE prone to sinking than the MAC by a factor greater than TEN!

How come none of us geniuses here on this site have never figured out WHY?

(By the way, for the egg experiment in real life look up You Tub footage of 'hurricanes in the harbor' and you can see what the boats look like when they are blown over and held down by wind and how some of them even blow right out of the water - it's a good lesson to observe.) Very scary!