26M motor

[Bobby T.-26X #4767]

Check-out the Nissan & Tohatsu website(s) for the suggested list.
Locally, will go for several hundred under that.
$7,000 installed.
You'll probably need to sell the 50 yourself though.

[sailpsych]

I may get smacked for this but here goes. I have an M and love it for what it is (Powersailor). However with this said, If you are ONLY interested in the sailing capabilities, why the heck are you getting an M? The M is considered a below to average sailboat. But you couple both capabilities(power+sail) and it becomes an AWESOME powersailor.

But, if I'm not mistaken, there aren't a whole lot of other options for trailerable (well, EASILY trailerable) cruising sailboats. Though I'm sure there are more, Hunter is all that comes to mind. The 26ft. Hunter water ballast model is about $25,500. Adding wheel steering (if that's important to you) is $2,300, and a trailer w/brakes is a whopping $4,800. Now, of course, the trailer is probably better than MacGregor's trailer (how could it not be!), and the boat reportedly sails better, but for some people, the $10,000+ price difference could be an issue.

Checking the PHRF ratings, the Hunter 260 is close to 10 points better sailing than the 26X. I didn't see the 26M on the PHRF ratings. I've seen the 260 Hunter blasting along up the coast under sail and it does scoot. I'm very pleased, though to plug along with my 26x. After all, if you are after speed, a sailboat is really the wrong venue (unless you have a world record breaking 100' catamaran.)

--Mike

[sailpsych]

I don't know how I did that, but the last paragraph is mine and not Mike's as indicated. Sorry about that.

Bruce

[Rolf]

Frank,
The loaded down Catalina crossing from Pedro to Isthmus Catalina (22 miles) take exactly 6 gallons at WOT avg 14 knots. I imagine the TLDI90 could do 14 knots at less than 4000 RPMs and thus hopefully get similar mpg.
Rolf

[Dan B]

My guess is that a 25hp might push a fully-loaded M 6-10 knots.

I think it mostly depends on what you want the hp for - is it for the fun factor, to outrun storms, overpower contrary tides/current where you sail, etc. A 25hp motor will get you over some of the last few, but it won't provide for towing watertoys, etc.

[Dimitri-2000X-Tampa]

Well, I still disagree with some of youz who think the Mac doesn't plane with a 50HP motor. Sure, it will sit higher on the water (with less of the hull in) at 25kn than at 15kn, but the definition of planing is reaching a speed where you are ahead of your bow wave and I'm relatively certain this happens on a 26X at about 10 knots. Going from 10 to 15 knots you just pull further away from the bow wave and it flattens out...just like any powerboat. My old jetboat wouldn't reach planing until about 18 knots but that is because of a different hull shape as well as a different wetted surface to weight ratio. Heck, when I was a teenager, I was able to plane a small inflatable boat with a 4HP motor on it.. Perhaps the M needs a bit more speed with its more V-shaped hull though.

As for plowing, my bow is plenty out of the water at speeds above 10 knots, even with all the kids in the V-Berth looking out the hatch. Kinda like this picture (which doesn't even look all that fast):

If you want any of the powerboat features of the M, such as the ability to empty ballast under way

My guess is that you would be able to empty the ballast with a 25HP...just barely. This is because right before you are planing, the boat goes into enough of a nose high attitude to make all the water fall out of the back. I use this technique quite often really...running at around 8-9 knots. Now, I doubt a 10 or 15 HP motor would have enough power to do that though.

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

I would say that the boat in the picture, or any our X's with a 50 hp on them, is not on a plane.

I feel there is more to planing than just getting ahead of your bow wave which happens on any boat once you exceed your hull speed. Even displacement boats can do this with big enough engines. They are not planing.

In my opinion there are three distinct phases to planing. The first is below hull speed, the boat is flat, pushing the water out of it's way. The second comes when you exceed hull speed and the boat can no longer push the water out of the way fast enough so it goes into a bow up attitude and you begin to climb out of the hole. The third is when you get out of the hole and are now skipping along on the surface on a full plane. The boat in this phase is back to a near level attitude and there is a noticeable speed release.

All sizes of boats exhibit these phase. Even on our loaded inflatable with it's dinky 6 hp motor we get all three although to attain the third we have to shift almost all our weight to the bow to get out of the hole. The boat then goes flat and the speed jumps as we reach the full plane and leave the hole in the water behind.

The boat in the picture hasn't, and certainly my X with a 50hp never, reaches phase three. It sits with part of the bow up and out, but the aft portion of the boat still on the side of the hole. It never gets that out of the hole speed release with it's return to a more level attitude. Macs with bigger motors are able to continue building speed until they do attain a full plane rather than the partial one we experience.

I do agree that you will get beyond hull speed into beginings of phase two with a 25 hp motor. You will be able to drain the ballast.

[Terry]

So Duane, given your definition of planing, is it only a function of the boat's attitude on the water or is speed a factor. Some of these boats get in excess of 20mph on 50hp one would expect that they are on a plane at that speed, even eith these big boats. I've clocked my M at 19.8 just off Point Roberts Wa. with a GPS and that was with all my supplies, gear, & one passenger & empty ballast. I'm sure under more favourable conditions (flat windless lake & stripped down boat w/90lbs skipper) I could squeeze a few more MPH out of her & be on a plane. I'll have to get someone in a powerboat to get a pic if me when I attempt it to see if I really do make it to planing. BTW I'm not 90lbs!

[Dimitri-2000X-Tampa]

I respectfully disagree. The explanation for conventional powerboat planing does not apply to the Mac. The reason the bow is high is because of the shape of the rear of the hull.. Ie, because it is half a sailboat hull and half a planing hull, the boat is designed to pull the bow out of the water like that...which is what makes you think it is still "trying to plane". The proof can be found in many inflatables which (like a mac) do not pull up "bow high" and then settle back down when they get over the bow wave....but they are most certainly planing. On my little inflatable many years ago, you knew it was planing because the motor started cavitating (and the speed more than doubled) as the whole thing had raised up... Maybe its different with very rigid inflatables that have a powerboat bottom to them, but not this one....it used to come up on a plane just like my Mac does.

As far as making "any" boat plane, I'm pretty certain a normal keelboat will never plane, no matter how large of an engine you put on it.

The likely reason that Billy's boat and others with very big engines flatten out even further is because with extra speed, the boat lifts out even more, therefore now carrying even more of the weight to the rear (and a smaller area), where the hull is flatter.

Seems like we get into this debate once every few months

[Chip Hindes]

Seems like we get into this debate once every few months

Yes, and I respectfully submit that such never ending arguments on the definition of plane are irrelevant.

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

I agree a regular keel boat will never plane, but with a big enough engine, or enough sail power, or say surfing down a wave, it will get ahead of it's bow wave. That is why I feel there is more at play here than just saying when you are head of the bow wave you are planing. We both agree a keelboat is not planing even though it can at times get ahead of it's bow wave. Your definition of that as the only criteria is what I take issue with.

The Mac 19 even with a 40 hp actually could get out of it's hole. It behaves exactly as you would expect, the attitude flattens, the speed see's noticable increase as the drag is reduced. It also has a much more of a pure powerboat hull and less weight. I've never been on an X with anything bigger than a 70, but even that did exhibit the normal planing behavior as it approached 20 knots. Incedently the M with a 70 does this as well.

Perhaps Billy can tell us if he experiences a flattening of the ride and that non-linear speed increase as he leaves the hole behind.

Like most boats our inflatable experiences this same thing like yours did. Open the throttle all the way it goes faster, hits the wall, struggles up and out, prop cavitates, and then it releases and quickly builds speed until it reaches it's highest velocity. A classic planing hull in action.

I do agree it is the hybrid hull design that is at fault. Flat as the aft portion is it is not enough area to support the weight on a plane when traveling at 16 knots which is as fast as the 50, mine at least, can push my heavily loaded boat. Two things fix it, more power so you can reach a higher speed with the same weight, or less weight as in the stripped boats in the video which let them reach a higher speed. From what I can gather, as long as either approach can get you into the 19-20 knot range you will accomplish a full plane. You descibe it correctly, once going fast enough to carry the weight in the small rear area the boat is on a true plane. You've made exactly the same argument. Up until then it is in the transition phase, close to planing, but still plowing at the front, and unfortunately for those of us with a 50 it lacks the power to go any faster.

[Robert]

it really meant having only the aft few feet of the hull on the water and not pushed down into the water. Think about pushing a flat piece of wood 8 feet wide and 3 feet long across the water with a 23 foot side wind catching appendage sticking out to foreword into a stiff breeze created by your own speed... What would keep you moving in a straight line? On a smooth flat bottom there is no directional control, unless pushed down into the water several inches the sides of the Mac26X hull would provide no directional control.
..
BTW, how is our buddy with the full length Smartrails pushing that water down and lifting the hull doing as far as high speed planing is concerned?

[bscott]

I know this thread is about big motors and planning but I have sailed J-24s and a Capri 25 that planned under a chute at 14-16 kns. These are full keel boats with 3.5'-4' drafts. Numerous other kbs plane--Melges 24, B-25, Merrit 25, to name a few. In order to accomplish this the crew had to simultaneously grab the cabin top and jump up and forward. This transfered the crew weight forward at the same time lightening the stern. Once over the bow wake, they settle into a faily level flight.

[Dimitri-2000X-Tampa]

The Melges 24 and other similar racing boats have planing hulls not displacement hulls like traditional keel boats.

Surfing is different than planing, you are basically riding the wave as if it were a current. A planing hull may plane while surfing, but a displacement hull is still plowing through the water while surfing.

I think we need a poll on this

[Billy]

Perhaps Billy can tell us if he experiences a flattening of the ride and that non-linear speed increase as he leaves the hole behind.

I find the "magic spot" @ about 21+ mph. This is where you can feel the X change attitude, begin to level, and pick up speed. From there on, it just gets better. You know you've left that "hole" behind and now the boat feels like it's sliding over the water with less power. A very slight "chop" seems to produce more speed than slick water. Less wetted surface and trapped air between the hull and surface.