X versus M race, it has been done

[gerrykite2fly]

Hi all,
today I had the opportunity to head into the same direction at the same time as an X boat. I heard, whenever this is the case, you can call it a race.

Here are the preconditions:

both boats loaded with 4 persons and a light load for a daytrip. The weight was almost identical. The X was flying a genua and a fully battened main. My M has a jib and the stock main. The X has a 15HP engine, the M a 50HP.
A light breeze, app. 8-10 knots of wind. calm water, mx 1ft waves. Distance: app. 5 nm
Skippers experience: the X boat was skippered by one of the most experienced sailors here in Samui. He knows his boat and the local conditions like no other and participates frequently in races (on other boats).
I used to be a catamaran teacher. Not much that a cat has in common with an M boat, except for the tendency to heel, but more on that later. I would say, the X had the better captain.

Outcome: My M was clearly faster.
I would estimate, by around one knot.

Asked the colleague, if he had a GPS, but unfortunately he didn´t. My speed was around 4 knots on average, which was pretty good for the light winds.

So that´s quite a surprise, isn´t it.

And now comes the BIG BUT:
When we were going to the neighbor island in the morning, there were about 15-20 knots of wind and around 2 ft waves.
I tried almost every sail setup thats possible to stop her from excessive heeling (had 2 customers on board and the usually freak out over 20 degrees if they are unexperienced).
First full canvas, then main only, then reefed main only, then reefed main plus half of the jib. Only the last setup kept her under 20 degrees of heeling angle and granted a stable ride through the chop. The speed was around 4,5 to 5 knots pretty much regardless of the sail configuration.

My X-friend said he had no problem at all in those conditions with full canvas.

So what is the outcome of that all? The M is set up for light wind. At least with the stock sails. In heavy air, the boat tends to heel excessively, except you reef like hull. And even then would any gust frighten your fellow crew members and even yourself... Most of the heeling momentum comes from the headsail. Mainsail only is not a good sail setup, as the boat is not really stable in my point of view, especially in waves.

I try to fight that fact with a ballasted daggerboard as discussed at a different thread.

Now I hope, these infos are of use for you.

Ahoy Gerry

[JustSail]

I think the sailor makes way more difference than the boat. I've been racing every Wednesday night with my club. There are 4 Macs in our fleet: 26D, 26S, 26X, 26M. The serious racers do better than the casual racer. I'm still learning my boat, so we have been dead last. Although we beat the 26S last week. To be fair, it was light wind and he had around 5 people on his boat, while I had just 2.

I tried posting a link to the results, but the board won't let me. If you're interested try googling Alum Creek Sailing and look at the race results. I'll post a link later.

[Andy26M]

My experience with my M tells me that in 15+ knots of wind you are not going to get the best performance if you want to stay under 20 degrees of heel. The boat seems to settle in real comfortable at about 25-30 degrees and "feels" like that is where it really gets into the groove. To keep it under 20 degrees you're going to give up a lot of potential performance.

- Andy

[delevi]

Would agree with Andy. 20 Degrees is difficult to maintain in 15-20 kts without luffing your sails. Also, it sounds like your captain friend had better sails. I can tell you first hand that quality sails on the M boat will seriously reduce heel and add speed. I have also had a ballasted DB made and that helps. I frequently sail my M in heavy winds (20-35 kts) and get reasonably good performance. 25-35 degrees heel is typical for me, though I try to keep it as low as possible. Reefed boat at 25 degrees will be faster than fully canvased boat at 35 degrees (much faster and easier to control.) I usually reef at 20 kts, sometimes around 17 when going upwind. I usually furl in a bit of jib, then go to the first reef in the main, then second reef in the main, then furl in the jib to storm size. I normally don't sail just under main, even if the amount of headsail is just a patch, which is my usual steup in 30 kts+ Beam reaching with big quartering waves, you would do well just riding the headsail w/o main.

I had one opportunity to sail alongside an X boat. Didn't know the person and a bit too far for me to tell how many crew. I had 2 including myself. Winds were around 25 kts. I was double reefed w/ about 2/3 jib. The X boat had a similar sailplan. I pulled away from him rather handily. This was with the ballasted DB but before I got the new sails and custom rudders. All things being equal, I would guess the M boat has an edge, but modifications, sails, and most importantly the skipper probably play a bigger role in which boat would end being faster... or more accurately less slow

Cheers,
Leon

[beene]

or more accurately less slow

Well done Leon.... I like that.

G

[Newell]

If the M could only perform the same as a X then the performance differences that Roger M. added wouldn't justify the cost. The 2 models aren't very similiar in many respects. It would be ideal to have good solid PHRF numbers to work with in handicapping these boats. Still I have been watching this forum and the old Sailnet forum for many years and there really isn't much organized racing being done to establish creditable numbers.

Newell
Fast Sunday 96X

PS: Leon, I saw your boat in the dry storage at Oyster Point Marina when I stayed there the end of July. Was hoping to get to meet you. I had a rough time with the heavy winds BTW.

[baldbaby2000]

Still I have been watching this forum and the old Sailnet forum for many years and there really isn't much organized racing being done to establish creditable numbers.

That's right. It's a catch-22. I've raced mine probably 25+ times. The handicap numbers I get are clearly too low. This frustrates people who want to race and therefore the low PHRF status quo remains. There seems to be the impression that the 26X, 26M and 26 classic are all about the same handicap, in fact some handicappers don't even know they are different boats, even though the classic is clearly the faster boat. It also doesn't help that most X's and M's have huge motors on them.

Daniel

[delevi]

PS: Leon, I saw your boat in the dry storage at Oyster Point Marina when I stayed there the end of July. Was hoping to get to meet you. I had a rough time with the heavy winds BTW.

Newell,

Wish you PMd me. Probably had the Roger rudders on the boat at the time rather than the jumbo IDA rudders, since I was waiting for the set to be repaired... I think that was in July. Those SF winds can be challenging, especially Oyser Point. That place is a wind funnell, getting some of the stronger winds on the bay. Compares to what you would get between Alcatraz and the Golden Gate. Much of the time, it's reasonable winds elsewhere, then once you round the pier past San Bruno Mountain, you literally go from 12 kts to gale force within 3-5 minutes. Almost always windy at the marina with a wicked current. Makes docking quite adventurous... must have the fins down. Give me a haller next time you come out to SF.

Leon

[Catigale]

In a large production quantity (for boats) Roger will be driven by lifetime of molds, not speed enhancements or mods, to create a new model...I suspect (I have no knowledge of this) that something happened to the 2003 2004 molds on the that prompted the changes there...of course, the hull mold is the same I believe.

I cant hlep noticing the critical information, HULL COLOUR, was left off...





I suspect the will be faster on most if not all points of sail due to the better release of water flow at the transom.

[gerrykite2fly]

There is tons of talk here what if there were equal conditions to compare these two boats. What I try to say, is, that you couldn´t have a better comparison than that to see, which BOAT is REALLY faster. Same weight, same load and a better skipper on the slower boat prove, that Roger M. has been right on the speed issue.
I wish he had been right on the top speed performance under engine either....

I also realized, that in high wind conditions the M boat will heel over 20 degrees if you intend to run it at top speed. I singlehanded her to 7 knots at a heeling angle of 25 degrees, which was a fun thing to do. but with non experienced crew on board, the goal is to keep people comfortable. And that´s not easy indeed...

[Andy26M]

Leon -

Would you care to share where you got your replacement sails? Did you go with a full-battened main? 100% Jib or something different?

- Andy

[baldbaby2000]

I was only in one real race where there was an X. I beat him and a Catalina 250. But there are times on the lake where he seems as fast or even faster than me. There are a lot of variables here even with similar sails and skipper skills. It might be that in some wind conditions the X is faster but in my experience the M is a little faster most of the time.

I'd like to hear from Richard on whether his performance changed when he went from his big 60hp to a much smaller motor.

Daniel

[Frank C]

Leon - Would you care to share where you got your replacement sails?
Did you go with a full-battened main? 100% Jib or something different?

Leon posted these two threads specifically regarding new sails (first post exactly one year ago!).
Took The Plunge-Ordered New Sails
Quantum Sails

Search Quantum with Author delevi to find many other discussions.

[Gerald Gordon]

I suspect the will be faster on most if not all points of sail
due to the better release of water flow at the transom

Catigale...What do you mean?

[Catigale]

The transom was shaped to allow a better release of water according to the factory marketing materials...on an if you throw your favourite hat off the back of the boat near the motor and sail for a minute or two it will be still be there, trapped by the turbulent water flow...I tried this with my customers hat at Nantucket....