Project M - Jib Sail and Rigging

A forum for discussing boat or trailer repairs or modifications that you have made or are considering.
User avatar
Currie
Captain
Posts: 621
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 12:31 pm
Location: Michigan ---- '04 26M "Take Five" 50HP Suzuki efi 4-stroke

Project M - Jib Sail and Rigging

Post by Currie »

Hi All,

I hope it's happy hour where you are. No boat yet :| ...but I wanted to get your thoughts on another idea that I've been working out.

I've gone back and forth between eyeing a working Jib and/or the 150% genoa. Some dealers are recommending the 100% working jib for first buyers as they feel it points better, and is not as easily overpowered. The former makes sense since the smaller jib is tracked well-inboard, and can be close-hauled to a much better shape. Of course, in lighter winds, that's about where the benefit ends. I've read a lot of great info here, as well, and I'm wondering if it's possible to get a bit of the best of both worlds.

My first question is…what is the biggest jib that can be close hauled on extended working jib tracking? That is to say, the clew needs to slip in under the lower shroud. In the factory diagrams it looks like no more than a 100%, but that's a perfectly flat sail. With a normal draft it looks like about a 120% to me.

To make this work, I think I'd like to use a four sheet system - but with a twist. The two sets of sheets are - one set on the inboard-forward tracking, the other on the outboard-aft tracking. Because I wouldn't be using a full 150%, the genoa tracking can't be used, as it pulls from the wrong angle. I'm thinking (if it's at all possible) that tracking could be added to the gunwales, to correct this problem.

Image

The additional tracking is shown as blue rectangles. The 100% working jib and 150% genoa are shown with dotted lines. The colored lines show the 120% and its sheets (note how they indicate where the tracking needs to be). The whole idea for this, is better control of sail shape in various points of sail. Below is a 100% working jib shown reaching (in green) with an outboard-aft sheet.

Image

One would still want to use the working jib tracks for sailing close-hauled.

In general, I hate four sheets on a jib. There's normally too much lazy sheet length lying around, dragging thru the water, tangling, or in need of four-handed management when tacking. I'd like to minimize this by having the reaching (outboard-aft) sheets be allowed to slip thru the clew. In the drawing below, the red lines are the normal inboard sheets, the green lines are the reaching/running sheets that can slip thru the sail. There are two stop-knots (actually nylon balls) that grab the sail when desired.

Image

The idea is that, when pointing up, the green sheets are kept just loose enough as to allow the red sheets to do their job tacking. No adjustments need to made to the green reaching sheets, they just slip thru. When the time comes to reach or run, one would slack the red sheets and cast off the windward green sheet and pull the slack around until the stop-knot 'picks-up' the sail and pulls it back for a better shape. Also, the green reaching sheets could probably still be cleated on the genoa tracks and just led thru blocks on the gunwale tracks.

This is still just a four sheet system. But I think there would be a lot less twisting and tangling of sheets, and mostly, it just allows you to do things one step at a time, without having to manage all four sheets at once while maneuvering.

:P Thoughts?

Cheers...
~Bob
Last edited by Currie on Fri Mar 09, 2007 5:49 am, edited 8 times in total.
User avatar
Currie
Captain
Posts: 621
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 12:31 pm
Location: Michigan ---- '04 26M "Take Five" 50HP Suzuki efi 4-stroke

Post by Currie »

BTW - I should mention - a whisker pole does a much better job of controlling sail shape off/down wind. But I'm looking for something I can manage solely from the cockpit.

Best regards,
~Bob
Frank C

Post by Frank C »

Nice stuff, Bob! did you copy that hull, or draw it from scratch?
Looks as if the fractional hound might be lower than Roger places it?

That, of course, has no bearing at all on your questions. It's been discussed before that the factory jib tracks are too short. More importantly, that they are too far inboard, causing backwind. The best suggestion I've seen is placing the cabintop tracks right along the toe rail. Fact is, that's where Roger placed them on the early '95 X-boats.

I've seen Roger's jib rated as a 105, but never tried to actually compute it. The J-distance on both X and M is supposed to be 9' 8" or 9.67 feet. The shrouds on the 26X are on-beam with the mast, so your drawing indicates the lazy canvas will tack past the mast, then be sheeted inboard of the shrouds. I guess the real question is whether your 120 is cut so it will be happy sheeting inside the shrouds. It would be a perfect sail for SF Bay ... my 135 is too big.

Seems as if you've done some real homework ... not able to fault it, but I think you'll want to add dimensions to your drawing and give it to the sailmaker, eh?
User avatar
Currie
Captain
Posts: 621
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 12:31 pm
Location: Michigan ---- '04 26M "Take Five" 50HP Suzuki efi 4-stroke

Post by Currie »

Hi Frank...thanks!

FWIW...I traced the brochure drawings with a pen :P, scanned it into my computer and edited it from there. The proportions should be ok, unless I screwed something up, which is entirely possible.

Is back-winding a problem when running close-hauled? Or a little more off the wind? That could be an issue with this. But I guess the old tracks would have to go anyway. Can the new tracks be relocated (outboarded) anywhere mid-deck without structural issues? I can see where they are currently in a very rigid location, along side of the hatch ribs.

You're right, I'd have to consult the sail-maker (with dimensional drawings) before ordering. Has anyone ordered from MacGregorOwners.com? They have a nice custom sail page with lots of options. They seem a little pricey, however - not sure.

Thanks again!....

~ Bob
User avatar
delevi
Admiral
Posts: 2184
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 1:03 am
Location: San Francisco Catalina 380, former 26M owner
Contact:

Post by delevi »

If I understand your idea correctly, you are planning to use two sets of sheets on one sail. While close hauled, you would use the sheets on the standard jib track, and use only part of the sail? If so, you'll have excess flapping, a real quick way to ruin a sail.

I would first decide which are the prevalent conditions you'll be sailing in and choose a headsail accordingly. When I got my new sails, the sailmaker said that with the location of the tracks, the largest jib that could be sheeted inside the shrouds would be a 115. Even so, he thought it would be best to go with a 105, 110 max. The tracks are too far forward, he thought, and any added overlap will reduce the sails efficiency due to the sheet angle, even with cars in the aft-most position. I went with a 105.

If you go with a hank-on, it's easy. Get a jib & 150 genoa. Sheet the jib inboard the shrouds and the genoa outboard, just like the manual says. If you want roller furling, it's a bit more complex. If you sail mostly in low winds, get a quality genoa with luff pad which you can furl in to jib size. Then use your 2-sheet set system. The shape will be compromised but not as badly with a luff pad and a well-cut sail.

If you will be sailing frequently in 15 knots wind or more, get the standard jib. Don’t even question it. You’ll be a lot happier. This is a tender boat. In 15 knots wind and higher, less sail area is better, always, unless broad reaching or lower.

If you for the jib as I did, an a-spinn is a great sail to have in your inventory. The sail will let you sail as high as a beam reach in light air, and is a great option for the large sail when the jib is just too small. I find that a large headsail on the Mac is only beneficial in really light air on a beam reach or higher. The jib will almost always be preferred on a beat. The spinnaker will almost always be preferred on a broad reach or DDW. So if you think about it, the only real benefit to a genoa is on a beam reach in winds of 10-14 knots. Too narrow of a range to make the compromise IMHO.

Don't mean to sound like I'm giving a lesson here, but just some stuff I learned on this board and now personal experience.

Cheers,
Leon
User avatar
beene
Site Admin
Posts: 2546
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 5:31 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Ontario Canada, '07 26M, Merc 75 4s PEGASUS

Post by beene »

Hi Leon

I keep thinking that using the Genoa, on a furler, furled just right, with the sheets running to the inboard bocks, will point well enough, or at least better than using the Genoa in the standard fashion. I have not had a chance to try this yet, but as long as I am not racing, just cruising, and trying to get the most performance possible, without changing sails just to beat, this should work great.

I understand what you are saying, re average wind, choosing the right sail for your area etc etc., but I love having the flexibility of the genny on a furler. From what little experience I have using the asym, she gets overpowered fast. I have now purchased the Chutescoop as per your and many others recommendations, so I am looking fwrd to being able to control the asym much better, but I still think the 150 is a better choice for heavier wind in anything from 90 beam to ddw.

I love to sail, and if I had my way, which I might in the near future, I will go with some kind of dual headsail config :)
Every post I see that starts talking about that subject, I am reading with great vigilance. I have the 4 Mac sails, and 3 other smaller ones waiting to be "toyed" with. I will be sure to post anything and everything I try out, provided we, the boat and I, survive the testing stages.

Cheers

G
User avatar
Currie
Captain
Posts: 621
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 12:31 pm
Location: Michigan ---- '04 26M "Take Five" 50HP Suzuki efi 4-stroke

Post by Currie »

delevi wrote:If I understand your idea correctly, you are planning to use two sets of sheets on one sail. While close hauled, you would use the sheets on the standard jib track, and use only part of the sail? If so, you'll have excess flapping, a real quick way to ruin a sail.
Hi Leon,

My bad...I realize now that in the pics above, I showed the first four-sheet diagram with a 100% jib, not a 120%. It was just to make a point about sheeting angles.

The intention is to use the full sail in both sheeting modes (with a 120% jib). This doesn't address wind conditions at all. It's for optimizing all points of sail in a given condition. I should have been clearer.

BTW - If I buy a rope-luffed jib and decide to furl it part-way, that's always an option - or have a storm jib handy and set it up before setting sail, as you've suggested. The rest still applies.

What I'm addressing is the inability of the MacGregor (like most small boats) to outboard the jib tracking when reaching and running. When you choose a working jib, or a 150% genoa, you are also choosing a sheeting angle (because they use different tracks) and are therefore favoring a given point of sail. The working jib can be hauled closer. The 150 favors off/down-wind sailing. Some here have said they do better by re-routing the 150 genoa sheets between the shrouds when pointing. To be honest, I don't want to mess with that :? . People who use four sheets, do it to get the optimum configuration for a given point of sail, regardless of the wind conditions. The goal is to get control of the slot between the sails. The slip-thru thing is just a line management idea. Also, one should be able to do everything from the cockpit.

Hope this helps....

Cheers,
~Bob
User avatar
Currie
Captain
Posts: 621
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 12:31 pm
Location: Michigan ---- '04 26M "Take Five" 50HP Suzuki efi 4-stroke

Post by Currie »

beene wrote:I keep thinking that using the Genoa, on a furler, furled just right, with the sheets running to the inboard bocks, will point well enough, or at least better than using the Genoa in the standard fashion. I have not had a chance to try this yet, but as long as I am not racing, just cruising, and trying to get the most performance possible, without changing sails just to beat, this should work great.
Hi Beene,

Do you have rope-luffing (or have you considered it) on your genoa? If not, is that the route you would go? Just wondering how well it works. I was thinking the same thing (furling the 150%) with the four-sheet sytem. Then I thought - maybe the 120% will keep a cleaner airfoil and give me the right compromise (since I have yet to buy it anyway). I'd still consider the 150% though, if people say it works well. Thanks!

~ Bob
Frank C

Post by Frank C »

Clarifying the point Leon was making . . . Macs are tender, fat and light.
Fat as in freeboard, so the wind deters the boat. Light means the freeboard is that much more effective in slowing the boat, upwind anyhow.

In winds of 10 knots the boat really needs a Genoa to attain any sailing speed. But as soon as winds exceed 15 knots, the boat is overpowered by a Genny. Yes, one can furl it down to about 100, and even sheet it inboard. But if your average winds are 15 knots, then you'll always be using a partly furled sail. And the Genny furled down to 100 is probably one-third less efficient than a working jib, or worse.

I have a 135 Genoa. It must be sheeted outside, so pointing is worse. It overpowers the boat in my average summer winds, but it's okay in milder winter winds, and on more sheltered lakes. I guess there's no perfect sail for every venue, so you choose the best sail for your most frequent venue. A luff-padded 120, or maybe a 115, sheeting inboard would be a perfect choice for SF Bay. I might never bother to change to a larger sail. Once accustomed to regularly sailing in 15 to 20 knots, sailing in less wind just isn't as much fun ... it's motor time (and Miller time :) ).
User avatar
Currie
Captain
Posts: 621
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 12:31 pm
Location: Michigan ---- '04 26M "Take Five" 50HP Suzuki efi 4-stroke

Post by Currie »

Hi Frank/Leon,

I hear ya guys. I guess I'm coming from the same angle on the tender/fat/light thing, just maybe approaching it a little differently (or considering approaching it differently :? ).

I have a hunch (I'll deny I said this if I'm wrong ;)) that when pointing, a close-hauled 120% beats an out-boarded 150% in nearly all wind conditions up to over-powered - and isn't as easily over-powered. Comparing to a 100% (105%?) - when sailing more off the wind, having better (multi-sheet) control of the airfoil allows the 120% to make gains that the typically-rigged 100% can't (the latter stays in-boarded and becomes too full). The 150% wins, hands down, from beam reach to run in light conditions. But perhaps now I'm in spinnaker territory anyway.

I'll admit I'm picturing this setup with the water-ballast mod in the other thread. In the case where my 120 starts to become over-powered, I have a flexible ballast system to deal with it - up until the point where I need to furl the 120 in and reef the main. Beyond that, it's time to motor home.

Probably some major holes in my theory. I want to spend some time with the sail power calculators to test things out (not that they have the last say). I want to do my best to have stuff figured out to the point where I can make the right choices at buying time.

So it's just this whole package idea of a more sure footed (extra ballast), bigger-close-hauled pointing-jib, and lighter (lose the extra ballast) better-airfoil offwind-sailing, spinnaker-running, lighter-wind, heavier-wind, all-controlled-from-the-cockpit beast that is the ship of my dreams.

That being said, I whole-heartedly agree that I'd choose a smaller jib for wind conditions beyond the normal setup. I'd still get to use the outboard sheets too.

Obviously I need to get one first though. :|

Thanks! Please continue with your thoughts. It's helping a lot.

~Bob
Last edited by Currie on Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:23 pm, edited 4 times in total.
User avatar
Terry
Admiral
Posts: 1487
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 2:35 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Vancouver, B.C. Canada. '03 26M - New Yamaha 70

MillerTime

Post by Terry »

Frank C wrote:
Once accustomed to regularly sailing in 15 to 20 knots, sailing in less wind just isn't as much fun ... it's motor time (and Miller time ).
I couldn't agree more, I get spoiled by stronger winds so much that when anything under 10 knots blows I either stay home and cut the grass or motor if already out there. It seems like too much effort to hoist the sails for 2 knots of speed. OTOH when I get a new mainsail with a huge roach I might be more inclined to attempt lighter wind sailing. Reminds me of younger skiing days, I used to get quite fussy about snow conditions. :D
User avatar
Currie
Captain
Posts: 621
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 12:31 pm
Location: Michigan ---- '04 26M "Take Five" 50HP Suzuki efi 4-stroke

Post by Currie »

delevi wrote:When I got my new sails, the sailmaker said that with the location of the tracks, the largest jib that could be sheeted inside the shrouds would be a 115. Even so, he thought it would be best to go with a 105, 110 max. The tracks are too far forward, he thought, and any added overlap will reduce the sails efficiency due to the sheet angle, even with cars in the aft-most position. I went with a 105.
Hi Leon,

Just read your post again. I agree the short tracks are a big issue. That's why I've spec'ed more than doubling their length for this rigging setup. I used the elevation diagram to calculate sheeting angles. I'm wondering what your estimate of the max percent jib size might be, without regard to running off the jib track. That is - what size could you haul under both sets of shrouds if you had the longer track? Also BTW, I really do need to give Frank's comment about tracks being too inboarded some serious thought. Thanks again,

~ Bob
Last edited by Currie on Sat Mar 10, 2007 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Currie
Captain
Posts: 621
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 12:31 pm
Location: Michigan ---- '04 26M "Take Five" 50HP Suzuki efi 4-stroke

Post by Currie »

Another important detail (maybe a serious one)....

How does one attach any kind of rigging to the gunwales? IOW - how do you get under the fiberglass to back the fasteners? Can you expose it from the inside by peeling off some carpet, or cutting in to the deck liner? I've never seen tracking installed on that edge (like I'm looking for), but I've seen bimini tops and such fastened to the gunwales. Can it be done?

Best regards,

~ Bob
Frank C

Post by Frank C »

Currie wrote: ... Is back-winding a problem when running close-hauled? Or a little more off the wind? That could be an issue with this. But I guess the old tracks would have to go anyway. Can the new tracks be relocated (outboarded) anywhere mid-deck without structural issues? I can see where they are currently in a very rigid location, along side of the hatch ribs....
Bob,
Lots smarter guys than me have commented about Roger's tracks being too far inboard. I'm sure his location is nice and strong, but you can easily picture the problem.

When beating, seems to me that your new 120 will be happiest with its clew right out to the shrouds. Sheeting it to the hatch tracks will cause it to curl, pushing its airstream into the main luff ... backwinding the main. Even the standard jib causes this problem when beating, so it will be even worse with the longer foot.

I haven't studied the installation issues. I'm sure it will be an effort to mount tracks along the toerail. Actually, I'm guessing that tracks on my X need to be about 3" inboard from the towrail, avoiding the stanchion basses. On starboard it means avoiding the head compartment wall. It might also complicate a future dodger, but that's still in my future. For a track that's 5' long, we'll need to drill many liner and deck holes. It's roughly 16 bolts per side, means 64 holes~! Bummer, but doable!
User avatar
Currie
Captain
Posts: 621
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 12:31 pm
Location: Michigan ---- '04 26M "Take Five" 50HP Suzuki efi 4-stroke

Post by Currie »

Frank C wrote: Lots smarter guys than me have commented about Roger's tracks being too far inboard. I'm sure his location is nice and strong, but you can easily picture the problem.
Yep,

After doing some quick reading and taking more measurements, I completely agree, Frank. From the 'Annapolis Book of Seamanship'...

"While every boat seems to have her own optimum jib lead angle, we can say that on close-hauled courses, small, non-overlapping jibs should be trimmed no closer than about 8 degrees off the centerline and overlapping jibs should be trimmed no closer than about 10 degrees".

From the factory, the 26M working jib, sheeted mid-track, is at 7.5 degrees (if measured from forestay to jib block) - already too narrow, by this book's standard anyway. My 120% on an extension of that track would be about 6 degrees. So that's out.

If new tracking were placed along the toe rail, as you suggest, I can expand that angle to 11-12 degrees. This appears to be my only option. I'll have to do some thinking about how much the shroud interfers with the sail, i.e. whether or not I can still use a 120%.

Also, I don't think I'm too bothered by tearing (within reason) into the deck liner under the toe rail. One of my interior mod plans is to put a wood crown/lighting strip down the length of that area anyway, so it could be covered up nicely.

Thanks again,

~ Bob
Post Reply