Sailing Upwind Question

[Dan B]

I was out last weekend on a large lake. Had a great time sailing downwind and on a reach, but could literally make no progress to windward.

Wondering why.

Here is my story -
1) Winds 15+, 2 foot swells, small whitecaps
2) To keep the crew "happy" I needed to keep the boat as level as possible, so I had the main reefed to the factory installed point and very little of my Genoa out.
3) Only made 1-2 knots of speed, barely pointed upwind.
4) 3 Hunter 260's blew by me sailing upwind under full sail.
5) I motored back to the marina.

Here is my theory -
The reefed main (producing little upwind power), was not sufficient enough to overcome the amount of wind, swell, and the Mac's high profile. I could have hoisted the full main and made a bit of progress, but I would have had a mutiny on my hands.

Is there something else I could have done under sail in these conditions?

[Steve K]

Dan,
Convince the crew that heeling is okay, first of all. This is the biggest problem for most people, when they first encounter a sailboat. Don't worry, it won't tip over. Not to say you can't lose control. I've knocked my own boat over a number of times, to the point of washing the side windows. She will turn up into the wind and stand back up. Now, all you gotta do is convince the crew of this and tell them to hang on tight if it happens.
Go out on your own, or with a trusted friend and experiement with this some. Work on trying to get the boat to heel as much as you can. Once you have the feel for the boats limits, you will be able to sail her much better.
Oh! and wear a tether.

I highly reccomend a second reef point in the factory sail. This should be about 30 inches above the foot. this reef works very well for me.
I also find that the jib sail works a little better than a reefed genoa in some conditions, particularly the ones you describe. The problem with a reefed genoa is it becomes fuller as you reef it, and it gets higher off the deck. At some point of reefing the genoa it just creates heel, without creating any driving force.
So I think you may have been in that mode where the only forward power you had was provided by the reefed main and the genoa was just adding to the heeling force.
Just a guess, btw.
SK

[Merrick White]

Been there - done that......

Raise the centerboard a bit by hauling in a few inches on the control line. This will change the center and the Mac will sail better. The other alternative is let out more headsail which will also improve the balance of sail to board.

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

An 'X' will sail better, and faster on her feet, rather than heeled way over. This is different than many sailboats, an 'X' can be easily overpowered. While sailing on the edge of distaster at large heel angles may be fun, it is not necessary. You were correct to reef early although the factory huge reef is usually to much. Having one half way up helps. Going up wind, bring the centerboard about 1/2 way up for better balance.

In general I find the boat sails better with more headsail and less main. If you are reefed to the factory reef you should be able to use quite a bit of headsail up until about 25 knots of wind. I get better speed with my full genoa out and the main reefed than I do with the full main and the genoa rolled in a lot. At least with my genoa once you roll in past 1/2 way it's shape is very poor.

Remember, in a sloop rig the headsail is a key component of the drive given to the boat. This is the leading edge of the wing doing a large part of the work. The main is more of a trim tab keeping the airflow smooth through the slot and off the back of the wing and fine tuning the power. For the most part you can get the headsail trim right and leave it pretty much the same through most wind speeds and make adjustments to the power with the main.

Here an excellent primer.

At 15 knots you should be able to sail with almost full sails, just don't sheet them to tight. Just bring the sail in enough to stop luffing and start it drawing. Sheeting past this point won't gain any speed but will increase heel. You can depower the headsail by moving the car back which opens the twist at the top of the sail to reduce heeling. You can also do the same with the main, take off some vang and mainsheet tension to let the boom lift and the sail twist off at the top spilling some air to reduce heeling as well. Opening the slot will also help regulate the power. Try these approaches before going for the reef, paticularly before rolling in the headsail a lot. If you do roll the genoa in to about 100% you may want to move the block from the cockpit tracks to the cabintop tracks to get a better sheeting angle. Keep that head sail working, if needed reduce the main with a reef early and keep the genoa as full as possible.

[Janusch]

I agree with Duane, I found the best way to get the X to point was to move the lines to the cabin blocks when on a close haul. While still not the greatest pointing boat in the world, I went from 50 - 52 degree and getting fustrated to the point of starting the engine to getting the boat up wind at a 42 - 45 degree and getting to my location.
Again even with doing this most boats will blow by me heading up wind, but that is okay since I'm really not trying to race them. Also try to have the boat NOT heel more then 15 degrees. Speed does get reduced the more she heels. I'm very luck that my heel o'meter goes off just around that angle anyways.
God speed
Dave

p.s.
Also make sure your rigging is tight. My first year with the boat it was not and I felt caused the boat not to point as well.

[craiglaforce]

Here are a couple of things that I've found true going upwind.

The 100% jib is way better for going upwind than a big genoa.
Having the rig tuned (tight and balanced) is important to reduce weather helm and helps you go upwind.
Play with the sheeting angles (block locations along the rail).
Be careful not to overtrim the main and jib.

Centerboard down 3/4 of the way is usually where I put it for upwind.

Having some weight forward helps a lot. It stabilizes the front of the boat and hence gives a better airflow across the all important jib.
Keep and eye on the jib telltales and get them all to stream straight back if you can by adjusting travel block location and sheet tension and boat heading. (just barely streaming aft and you are on the optimal edge) .

Mainsail setup fairly tight (tight outhaul, full hoist with good tension.
Make sure topping lift is not fouling the leach of the mainsail.

No barnacles on the bottom. (press the barnacle ejection button)
motor raised.

Maybe one of these will help.

[bubba]

Have your crew look at this www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxmDYpj_lo8 and you will look tame.

[NiceAft]

Here is my story -
1) Winds 15+, 2 foot swells, small whitecaps
2) To keep the crew "happy" I needed to keep the boat as level as possible, so I had the main reefed to the factory installed point and very little of my Genoa out.
3) Only made 1-2 knots of speed, barely pointed upwind.
4) 3 Hunter 260's blew by me sailing upwind under full sail.
5) I motored back to the marina.

Dan,

Everything posted is true, but to address #2 (most important), keep the mainsheet in hand at all times when in those conditions. You want to let the mainsail go free at a moments notice. Of course when you do, you will not make any headway, but the boat will be stable.

A Mac does not point well into the wind. This is a simple fact we all have to accept On top of that, you were hitting two foot swells. They will slow you down slightly also.

The best advice I can give you is get the family out on the boat as much as possible. With time they will acquiesce to the idea of heeling.

I used to sail my Phantom (similar to a Sunfish) on edge.

In a very stiff wind I could hike out and look under the windward side of it. I could clearly see the daggerboard cutting through the water. When I got the Mac, the first time I heeled I thought the boat was going over When I had guests on board, I would have them constantly shift from port to starboard, starboard to port, again and again Not fun I quickly learned that the boat is not going over, and now the Admiral and I are quite comfortable at 30 degrees. We have had it over 45 degrees. You don't go very fast, but it's a fun ride. Especially when you see power boaters pointing. They must be thinking we are about to sink

Give the family time, and some experiences. OH YEAH Make certain the ballast is full

Ray

[Hamin' X]

!	Moderator Note From Hamin' X::
	While there is nothing wrong with resurrecting an old thread, don't expect the original poster (OP) to read, or reply. In the case of this four year old thread, the OP has not visited the board for nearly two years. Info on members can be seen by clicking on their username in any post. ~Rich

[NiceAft]

Rich,

Thanks! I never even looked at the date I will from now on

This was as useless as most of the stuff going on in the pub

Ray

[Hamin' X]

No talk about sailing is really useless, Ray. Who knows, maybe you started a whole new topic for the newer members. I just put the notice in here as a

!	Mod Note:

to point out the date discrepancy and alert people to check the dates. After some of the drivil that I have posted in the Pub, I thought that I needed to stand out.

Actually there is some pretty good advice in this thread. Worth reading again, or for the first time.

~Rich

[NiceAft]

Thanks, but I can't take the credit. That honor goes to bubba What basement did he dig a four year old thread out of

Ray

[Newell]

Please clarify what headsail you are using when moving the sheet to:

was to move the lines to the cabin blocks when on a close haul. While still not the greatest pointing boat in the world, I went from 50 - 52 degree and getting fustrated to the point of starting the engine to getting the boat up wind at a 42 - 45

If you use the Jib 100% the sheets would already be on the cabin. If you are talking about the genoa, I'm not following your point.

Newell
Fast Sunday 96X

[NiceAft]

Newell,

You need to be more specific as to whom you are asking your question. Hopefully, it's not DanB.

Ray

[johnhenry]

I race my boat regularly with surpriseing success. Duann's thinking was good. You will learn a lot about your boat and balance by going out in light to mid range wind and sail with only your jib. let your tiller tell you what is needed, it don't ly. This year I bought a 155% genoa from North. I was very skidish of blowing over. In 12 - 15 knts we put our windows under water yet sailed a straight line with little presure on the tiller at all. We sailed it without the main until we knew what to do to get the boat to go into the wind at a good angle. Once you got it, add the main back into the picture and you will fly. The same for a 100% jib. I can match angles into the wind with almost any boat. also, In dingys we would take the rudder off and sail with trim only. You will learn what balances a boat pretty fast. Do it in worm water and light air. We had the rudder break off in a flying junior with 15-20 knts, its was scary but we learned fast, ha!! .No need to take your rudder off your mac, just listen to it, it will tell you what you need. Talk to a profesional rigger and tell him what your tiller is doing and he will know exactly what adjustment to make. Johnhenry