Propane story

[Catigale]

DOnt want to rehash the propane on board thread (you can search for that if you want) but wanted to pass this on.

Two nights Im on a friends J35, he has a Magma grill out back, and asked where he keeps his propane.

He pulls them out of the salon locker down below

Yikes, I think. Sooner Im off this the better. (i keep mine in the fuel locker and usually use up top, they always come off the stove after warming the pot and go right back in locker.

Today, in the driveway, Im melting the end of a nylon line, and I shut the torch off, pull of the torch, the valve in the cylinder FAILS and I am holding a 3 foot geyser of liquid propane

I do the sensible thing, heave it into an adjacent field, and call the fire department.

They come and hose it down for about two hours to make sure it doesnt settle in the storm sewer.

Got to thinking what if this had happened on board? I guess I would throw overboard, abandon ship carefully, and find some way to ventilate without sparks??

I keep my propanes in a ziplock, dry, and replace at first sign of rust to prevent this business of course. Said bottle was about 5 years old I think.

[richandlori]

Holy Smokes! I have a bottle that is pretty rusty and stored in my fuel locker. When I get to the boat, I will get rid of it, BUT is throwing it in the trash safe? How do you saftely despose of those propane cylinders?

Rich

[Catigale]

THanks for the reminder Rich

THe Fire Department guy told me to take it to any place that fills propane for BBQs, they will take the disposables and get rid of them safely.

Might vary from state to state.

[kmclemore]

I always lubricate the valve end on the tanks with a bit of vaseline at the beginning of the season or when I buy them... keeps them from rusting and makes them screw on/off easily as well as easing the insertion of the nipple into the tanks.

[Frank C]

Hmmm - mine get rusty pretty quickly in salt air, but never thought of stowing in a gallon zip-lock bag. Good idea. (also, that Vaseline sure is versatile stuff!)

BTW, just bought my first "stand-up" grill for the back yard. Table-top models just used 1lb. bottles, so I'll be buying a 20# OPD at Costco, raising questions:

- do the vendors replenish my brand new bottle, or want me to swap empty for a full bottle?

- what's average cost to refill a 20?

- If I also bought a smaller bottle (maybe 8 or 10?) for the boat, could I use the 20 to replenish the little one?

[Catigale]

Frank

Our area has both kinds of gas suppliers (replace and refill) - my guess is in a populated area you might only get the replace kind.

It runs about $18 to refill the 25# version in NY

Ive never seen a 8-or 10 # bottle Frank...thats a lot of propane to carry around.

imho refilling the 14 oz disposable tanks doesnt make a lot of sense. If you can use more than four of them a year you must be BBQ ing every meal every day! My Brinkmann stove boils a quart of water in 5 minutes and I havent dented my new fuel bottle all season.

The big maintenance item is to replace them every year so they dont rust out in the marine environment. I just bring them home and use them at home outside where I dont have the boat safety thing to worry about.

[Chip Hindes]

imho refilling the 14 oz disposable tanks doesnt make a lot of sense.

It's not illegal to refill these containers, but by DOT regulations it's illegal to transport them on Federal hiways or across state lines. I don't know for sure, but I would guess there are some state laws which make it illegal as well.

It's also not a good idea, I might even say foolhardy. The valves on these may not reseal after flowing in the "wrong" direction, the containers are not regularly inspected and hydro tested like refillable propane tanks, they are thin and not designed to be pressure cycled, there is no overfill protection device, and in the event of malfunction of the cheap filling equipment you use to do it, you could explode one.

Not all federal regs are designed just to make things more expensive and to inconvenience the public. Some are actually there to protect us from our own stupidity and that of others.

I fully expect that we'll now hear from those who've been doing this for years and haven't killed themselves yet.

[normo]

My boat came with a Kenyon KISS propane stove. It uses a small paint spray sized can of propane. I knew it had to go but I did use it a few times before I found a replacement on ebay. The last time I used it the can didn't seat properly. It made a hissing sound so I immediately pulled it out. I fiddled with the gasket, waited a minute or so and reinserted it. Seemed ok so I lit it up.

I expected flames from the burner but wasn't prepared to see a large plume eminating from the sink for a brief second or two. Apparently the propane from that short duration leak found its way into the sink. To read about this possiblilty is one thing. To see it first hand is quite another.

I don't ever plan to use propane inside the boat again. The replacement Origo alcohol stove works fine.

[Catigale]

Im with Chip on this one

Heres some FUD I pulled off the web

The logic part is that these cylinders do not have the safety margin
to withstand much internal rust. The propane put in the cylinders
at the factory is dry. The propane you buy in your grill tank
usually is not. In fact, fuel grade propane is usually nearly
saturated with moisture. If your refilled disposable cylinder rusts
from the inside out, where you can't see it, you might be in for a

THese cylinders cost about $2-3 bucks on sale IIRC.

YOu spend $20 to fill your 25 pound tank and get about 25 cylinder fills out of said tank. Is it worth the hassle to save 2 bucks saved per tank times 3 tanks equals 6 bucks per summer ?? Think not.

[Frank C]

Appreciate the advice guys, but my questions were obviously unclear.

1. I will buy a 20# bottle for my new Brinkman, and agree it might last a year for backyard Qs. If I can find a "refill" depot, I'll buy a new bottle for my own. Otherwise, prolly just get a swapper, and keep on swapping it.

2. I currently use one-pounders on the boat (six @ $10 in Costco). They're stowed in the fuel lockers, and only used for my Coleman grill 'n stove on the cockpit floor. But it's annoying to have them expire mid-course in a meal. If I also buy Coleman's hot water burner, they'll burn-up even faster.

3. So, I was thinking of buying a small, 8# refillable aluminum (or stainless?) bottle to stow on the aft deck. Available in West Marine for sure, other places too.

4. I can readily accept paying $20 to refill a 20# bottle, but it would annoy me to pay $20 to refill an 8-pounder.

5. Ergo ... I wondered if the 20-pounder could be (safely) used to replenish the 8-pounder? I'm guessing this might require a specialized hose?

[Divecoz]

I will limit how often I refill my small tanks in Mexico. . .many of us do this down there/ Mexico as the small
1lb tanks run $5 to $6 US . Now I will mention one thing . . it seems I feel a small amount of something shifting back and forth even in the new small tanks as well. . . not a lot but it sure feels like some small amount of something in a brand new tank bought here states side. . .Rust is a problem inside and out in the tropics and I would think in Florida and other points south as well.. As for hydro testing though I am familiar with it /scuba tanks . . . in all my years the only tanks I have lost were pulled just a year or two ago with the advent of the new valves and safety features etc . Though I have never had one get more than minimal surface rust / cosmetic ...

[Catigale]

Apologies Frannk - I did get swept away in the topic of refilling 14 or 16 oz propanes vs your topic. I think I would rather swap a 14oz bottle than hassle with lugging the 8# bottle back and forth and refilling though.

[Jack O'Brien]

Frank:

You can keep your 20# tank and have it refilled or you can pay a one-time fee of $5 and your tank at The Home Depot and other places and swap empty tank for full tank for about $18 ? whenever you want. I think you may then be stuck with the swapable tank which may not be refillable at regular refill stations? Home Depot and hardware stores and grill stores sell valves & hoses and fittings to allow refilling small tanks from big tanks. I presume the pressure needed to keep propane liquid is the same regardless of tank size so I presume you cannot "overfill" a small tank from a 20# tank. The pressures will equalize and the tank will hold whatever weight its size allows.

Chip wrote:
"I fully expect that we'll now hear from those who've been doing this for years and haven't killed themselves yet."
Well....I doubt we will hear from those who have killed themselves.

[Chip Hindes]

I presume the pressure needed to keep propane liquid is the same regardless of tank size so I presume you cannot "overfill" a small tank from a 20# tank.

Your presumption is incorrect. That's why all newer propane tanks have OPD (Overflow Protection Device, I believe) valves, and old tanks must be retrofitted with such before thay can be refilled. They're designed to automatically maintain a certain amount of gas space above the liquid level when they're being refilled, to allow for expansion without venting. They're fairly much idiotproof. Surprise, on the nonrefillable tanks, no such device, not idiotproof. Not that I'm saying those who try to refill nonrefillable tanks are idiots...

If you're refilling a small tank with an OPD from a 20 lb tank which also has an OPD, I guess with normal precautions that should be OK.

[Tom Root]

imho refilling the 14 oz disposable tanks doesnt make a lot of sense.

I fully expect that we'll now hear from those who've been doing this for years and haven't killed themselves yet.

I do, but don't actually reccomend it! If you decide to do it, I have found that freezing the empty bottle for about 30 mins prior to fill, helps to condense the gas to fluid quickly in the bottle recieving the propane.

Also, I always use a soapy solution, to check for leaks, as you all should be doing on every connection, hose etc,. Sometimes smacking it with the palm of your hand seats a leaky valve too!, other times, let it leak and dispose of it! Watch for ANY source of ignition, and don't of course fill in enclosed areas, such as a garage, which has a water heater that is gas, and has a pilot light. Basements or inside the house either.

I have one bottle that has been succesfully filled 10 times already. I fill by weight only, as their is no gauge of course. Weigh a full (new)bottle, and compare after you fill. Discharge if too heavy. the idea is to have a liquid amount of 80% by rule, and 20% gas by volumn.

The best way is to always have the supply bottle higher than the empty bottle also.

I have been doing this for years, as I used propane for lighting and cooking duties, and in my younger days and did many outings requiring those bottles.

For down below storage a trick I learned about was to use the appropriate I.D. PVC pipe with a cap glued on one end, and a screw type fitting on the other.

Make them as long as you like. One bottle length, or maybe three. I have one that holds two bottles. Wrapped in the gallon sized bags also.


Gotta try that vaseline for the valves trick now also!

Now, I just can't see paying up to 5 bucks a bottle, call me cheap, I call it thrifty!