problems with weather helm

[zenod]

Hello-I'm having problems trying to point my 26X in a stiff wind. I will be on a beat, and the boat will come into the wind, despite having the helm hard over to try to fall off. I've tightened my stays, trying to get a proper rake which I thought would help-but no. Manual says that the board may be a problem when this happens-i.e. too far down. I tried raising to about 3/4 down and I think it sailed somewhat better. Any other thoughts as to how to improve windward performance?

[craiglaforce]

let out the shrouds a bit, then tIghten the forestay to let the mast tip forward.
this WILL correct the problem. I had enough adjustment available on my forestay, but some have said they had to recut the forestay shorter.

Turnbuckles on the shrouds also makes the adjustments easier.

read the Bruce Whitemore article is under the featured articles button on the left.

The centerboard is for other things, and should not be constrained in its setting just to correct weather helm.

There should also be a few hundred posts searchable under weather helm. and probably a lot more than that on the old archives.

Good luck with your adjustments

[ken lockhart]

Another way to get rid of weather helm is to get the rudders tilted back under the boat. Ajust the rudders so that the angle is allowing the bottom of the rudder to go under the transom. This works on all sailboats with transom hung rudders.

Ken

[Moe]

From the little bit of tuning I was finally able to do this past weekend, it seems the best mast rake I'm able to obtain and still be able to reattach the backstay is about 5-6 degrees. While that was okay for the light winds this past weekend, the rudders were relatively straight, and the weather helm, light but manageable, I can imagine it would be a real problem in wind speeds twice or more these light winds.

With the turnbuckle fully tightened, where the rake will be 3-4 degrees, the backstay was close to 2" away from being able to be reattached in the last hole. I've ordered the parts to make my version of Duane's simple backstay adjuster. Some have found even this amount of rake to not be small enough for high winds and have raised or shortened their forestay to get even less.

Also, my upper shrouds were near (but not quite at) the ends of their adjustment. On one setting, they were off the bottom of the pounds scale of the Loos gauge for 5/32", just below 200 lbs. On the very next setting, they were between 300 and 320 lbs. And this was with the lower shrouds loose. Same thing with the lower shrouds, below 200 on one setting, 280 on the next.

Having Bill@Boats4Sail's Rig Adjusting Tool was great. I used it with a pair of common slip-joint pliers, which let me adjust its furled knob even after it was clamped.

--
Moe

[ALX357]

are you sure you are using the vernier feature of the adjusters ?? should be smaller incremental changes . (not using the same hole on either part for each change of length)

[Moe]

Yes... I would clamp the tool on such that I could just remove the pin, then slowly tighten it until the next set of holes lined up, wherever that was. Keep in mind that out near the end of the adjustment, there are fewer holes overlapping, so the increments may not be as small.

--
Moe

[Frank C]

Hello-I'm having problems trying to point my 26X in a stiff wind. I will be on a beat, and the boat will come into the wind, despite having the helm hard over to try to fall off. . . . Any other thoughts as to how to improve windward performance?

After wide reading about this problem I'm still unsure what are the 26X-factors that induce this problem, but it's worse on these boats than most sailboats. It's probably a combination of our squared-off hull form, relatively high freeboard, relatively light hull weight, and the aft-weight pendulum of the big outboard. But most importantly - wind speed.

Your post didn't mention winds, but no matter the "corrections" you employ, I think the Mac will still round-up in higher winds ... your corrections will just extend that maximum. But, beyond ~25 knots of wind, I would work to motor back to dock instead of trying to sail the 26X. IMO, if gusts are consistently over 20 knots it's time to weigh discretion, versus valor.

I found it impossible to handle the boat in 15+ knots untill I adjusted mast rake forward from the factory's 86 degrees to a current 88 degrees, which required cutting the forestay shorter by 4 inches. If that's an indicator, then there's only about one-half degree of rake available with each 1-inch of forestay adjustment (approx. delta within a turnbuckle)? Even at the new rake setting, my boat is still on the edge of weather-helm in 18+ winds, and it requires some aft centerboard to prevent rounding.
Just one opinion ... it's in the breed.

[Moe]

Just some other weather-helm factors to think about...

Having rudders hard over MAY stall them and make them less effective than they'd be at a lesser angle.

The relative power of the sails may be yet another issue. You might want to try depowering the main more/sooner than the jib. For example, before moving the jib sheet cars aft to put twist at the top of the jib, make sure you've taken care of the following.

Ensure the mast has enough bend in it to help flatten the mainsail. Consider adding an adjustable backstay to bend it more in higher winds.

If your mainsail is older and getting baggy, consider cutting the luff free of the boltrope at one end or stretching the boltrope (don't tear the sail doing this).

Wrap the clew outhaul behind the cleat and pull it forward to get 2:1 purchase, rather than just pull aft on it. Consider upgrading it to a 4:1.

Make sure you're using a trucker's hitch in the main halyard to give you 2:1 purchase when hoisting it. If you don't have sail slugs and a lubed track, consider getting them. It's hard to get good luff tension with a boltrope sticking in the track. Also consider adding a cunningham to tighten the luff from the bottom and help bring the mainsail draft (and center of effort) forward.

Make sure the vang is loose so the top of the main can "spill air" as many refer to it.

Reef the main if you need to. This will move the center of effort forward and reduce weather helm. Consider adding an intermediate reef point below the high factory one.

Hope this helps,
--
Moe

[normo]

Like Frank C and many others I have shortened my forestay to get the mast upright and added a 6:1 backstay adjuster. I currently have zero rake but I may put some back in as it caused the boom to also raise 4 degrees which I don't particularly like. Rig up a 3:1 on the outhaul and make sure the foot is very tight in breezy conditions. You need the same capability to tighten the outhaul when you reef. Also tighten the backstay a lot. If you tighten the main halyard without benefit of a winch you definitely need a cunningham. In breezy conditions the luff must be tight. Raising the centerboard should help upwind but I agree with Craig. It should not be done until after all rigging changes and adjustments have been made. For best windward performance in breezy conditions the centerboard on a well designed boat will be fully down.

For me, the lev-0-gage and the windex are the most important instruments on my boat. My advice is to pay particular attention to boat heel. If you are not racing and you find yourself repeatedly having to ease the main to keep heel 20 degrees or less then it is time to reduce sail area. I don't have a genoa but I suppose most folks start by rolling it up some. Reefing the main will reduce weather helm but the problem with this is that the factory reef point reduces the sail area too much for wind speeds that are only slightly above those causing frequent heeling above 20 degrees. I added a second smaller reef to my main.

I have concluded that the 26X can not be made to have the balance of the better keel boats I have sailed and owned over a wide wind range. It's just one of the compromises we have to accept. Do the best you can and live with it.

[ken lockhart]

All good ideas, you still want some weather helm and if you don't have some rake in your mast , the boat will not point as well. On the old 26D, you had to move the top rudder bracket out about 2 inches to get rid of the weather helm on the boat. So again I say, make sure that the rudders are down and the bottom of the rudders are further back under the transom. I see a lot of people with various boat that don't have their rudders all the way down and complain of weather helm. This is cheaper then cutting the forestay and your boat will point better.

ken

[Moe]

Our "tuning" actually took place in the parking lot Monday after pulling the boat out mast up. When we launched the previous Thursday, there was a 14 knot wind off the port bow in the prep lane leading to the ramp, and I didn't want to do a loop through the parking lot, so I waited and raised the mast at anchor when the winds calmed. Because of the forecasted light winds, I settled for about 7-8 degrees of rake.

The reason for mentioning this is Ken's comment about pointing and rake. I carefully checked the arms on the windex and found them spread right at 70. All weekend, we were able to point well inside of them before the sails started to luff. I'm not saying this was the fastest route, but I was a bit surprised given the comments here about the Mac's lack of pointing. Perhaps that won't be the case with half the rake.

Pointed along one of the windex arms, with the mainsheet set for about 15 heel, and the rudders straight, the boat would slowly round up a few degrees inside the windex arm, standing up a little, then before any luffing occurred, it would slowly fall off a bit past the windex arm with a little more than the 15 heel, where it would stop and cycle back the other way. We went across the lake several times doing this slow oscillation, with my hands off the wheel (slight bit of spring tension on the steering rack). Lots of fun. But again, I realize this is light wind performance, and the mast rake may've caused lots more weather helm in heavy winds.

--
Moe

[Frank C]

Our "tuning" actually took place in the parking lot Monday after pulling the boat out mast up.
... Because of the forecasted light winds, I settled for about 7-8 degrees of rake.
... The reason for mentioning this is Ken's comment about pointing and rake. I carefully checked the arms on the windex and found them spread right at 70. All weekend, we were able to point well inside of them
... I realize this is light wind performance, and the mast rake may've caused lots more weather helm in heavy winds.

I've read that pointing improves as mast rake increases (as Ken wrote above) but never quite bothered to pursue & understand the logic. However, with mast at 88* my boat sure doesn't point worth a d*mn. Regardless, with mast set at the factory's 86* (up from stern), the boat simply won't sail in our average summer winds - constant rounding up. A great pointing-angle is worthless if the boat refuses to hold a course. Further ... unless you're racing, or sailing to reach a specific destination ... pointing is meaningless to the challenge and fun of trimming sails and enjoying winds - just one opinion.

The performance base point I'm describing is with jib & reefed main, winds at 17+ knots. As Moe observed, if your average winds are 10 to 12 knots the factory settings might be just right ... before changing rake you can work on trimming techniques & (IMO) centerboard adjustments. Also remember that you cannot compare your Genoa's performance (speed, pointing or rounding-up) with another boat's jib performance - the Genoa creates a completely different behavior envelope. So, it's always best to describe your sailplan first when questioning performance.

My belief is that the 26X's centerboard is a valuable balancing control between about 75 to 90 degrees (down from stern). Since we're stuck paying the overhead to drag that CB trunk along ... might as well take full advantage~!

[ronacarme]

Narrow foils stall easily. Balance sail plan by letting in/out the CB line.To adjust CB line with the side load off the CB (luff up or head down to broad reach or below, adjust CB line,and return to course). Practice...its touchy...learn from involuntarily heaving to and/or backing up. Take good notes for future reference. My old D and earlier boats were far less touchy than my X, but I would not give up my X.
On my X to windward or close reaching with moderate heel/wind.
Full main only= CB line about 3/8 out.
Full main and working jib or drifter= CB line about 7/8 out.
Cruising chute only= dunno yet but CB line maybe 1/2 to7/8 out?
More wind/heel= more weather helm, so a little less CB line out.
Broad reach, downwind= less CB line out.
CB balances sail plan with rudders/helm centered, if boat holds substantially a straight windward or reaching course for a minute+.
CB fully down under most conditions interferes with sailing on my X.
Your X may well differ.
Experiment.