Pull starting Honda 50
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Wesley Kirchner
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2005 5:53 pm
Pull starting Honda 50
I was in a jam last Saturday with 2, yes 2 dead batteries in the mddle of the Potomac River and very little wind. I thought no problem,I'll just get out the handy dandy little emergency rope and start the engine to go home. Ha Ha. The rope is long enough to make one and a quarter turns around the pulley at best. I tried maybe 6 times and and found this was useless. Question : Has anyone ever had to use this emergency rope to start the engine before, and did it work for them. Old lawn mowers had a least 3 wraps around to get them started. Poor design. Wes
Before I put two batteries in, I wiped out the factory battery overnight watching the tv an using the anchor light, etc.. Have pull started mine twice, easier than I thought it would be. Choked it like I normally do and two pulls she fired right up. Maybe a pump or two on the fuel bulb might have helped you? Does it normally start well for you? Mine usually starts right up w/o pumping the bulb, but I do choke it till it starts then just use the fast idle for a minute or two. Since I put two deep cycle batteries from Walmart in the same spot as the original one, I can't kill them. They are wired together with all house and motor connection on the positive on one battery and all the negatives on the other battery's negative so I have true dual not one battery recharging the other. Hope it helps. Mike
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richandlori
- Admiral
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Mike,
I don't understand.
I understand you to say that you have all the positive leads connected to the positive on one battery and all the negative leads connected to the negative on the other battery.
Are you running a 24v system, with the 'open' negative connected to the 'open' positive? Is everything you have rated for 24v?
If you are running a 12v system, then you have the 'open' positive wired to the positive that everything else connects to. This means that the batteries are wired in parallel, which means that you do have one battery essentially charging the other. Although, this may not be a problem with oversized batteries...
I don't understand.
I understand you to say that you have all the positive leads connected to the positive on one battery and all the negative leads connected to the negative on the other battery.
Are you running a 24v system, with the 'open' negative connected to the 'open' positive? Is everything you have rated for 24v?
If you are running a 12v system, then you have the 'open' positive wired to the positive that everything else connects to. This means that the batteries are wired in parallel, which means that you do have one battery essentially charging the other. Although, this may not be a problem with oversized batteries...
When you have two batteries paralleled, with the loads connected to the positive and negative on one battery, current going through the other battery has to also go through the resistance of BOTH jumper cables, while that going through the first battery with the directly connected loads doesn't.
Theoretically, this means that either discharge or charge current won't be the same going through both batteries. About the only time you'd see a measurable difference would be with long or inadequately sized jumper (paralleling) cables at high currents.
Connecting the positve load to one battery's positive and the negative load to the other battery's negative puts one jumper cable in series with each battery and theoretically balances the current through them. It's something I'd do, if you get what I mean.
However, even with this setup, the differences in battery age, condition, and state of charge make far more difference than the wiring configuration. When paralleled batteries are at a different charge level, and not connected to a charger, one will charge off the other until they are equal, regardless of how the loads are connected. When connected to a charger capable of supplying the demanded charge current, neither battery will charge off the other.
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Moe
Theoretically, this means that either discharge or charge current won't be the same going through both batteries. About the only time you'd see a measurable difference would be with long or inadequately sized jumper (paralleling) cables at high currents.
Connecting the positve load to one battery's positive and the negative load to the other battery's negative puts one jumper cable in series with each battery and theoretically balances the current through them. It's something I'd do, if you get what I mean.
However, even with this setup, the differences in battery age, condition, and state of charge make far more difference than the wiring configuration. When paralleled batteries are at a different charge level, and not connected to a charger, one will charge off the other until they are equal, regardless of how the loads are connected. When connected to a charger capable of supplying the demanded charge current, neither battery will charge off the other.
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Moe
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ALX357
- Admiral
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- Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2004 6:09 am
- Location: Nashville TN -- 2000 MacGregor 26X, Mercury two-stroke 50hp
West Marine sells a combiner/splitter that lets you charge two batteries from the same source, but splits them when they are discharging.
.... the combiner/splitter also has a signal wire that when connected to a positive, forces the two batteries combined, and when connected to a negative, forces the split. Using a DPDT switch one pole for the positives only, and the other for the signal wire, can provide even more control over the splitter/combiner. ( all the negative poles are combined already on the buss. )
.... the splitter/combiner also has a timer circuit of several minutes' delay that keeps it from hunting and cycling on threshholds.
So two batteries can be connected essentially parallel, but discharge separately, and won't charge each other. .
.....
I have three batteries:
.... one cranking battery under the galley seat, that is only wired to the motor for discharging-cranking, and two deep-cycle batteries (for everything else,) that are separated by a switch 1,2, Both, or Off. One combiner/splitter serves the cranking battery and whichever house battery is switched thru, and another combiner serves the two deep-cycle batteries. Therefore, the motor charges all three batteries, the cranking battery is only used for starting/running the motor, while the deep-cycle batteries can be discharged one at a time, or together as desired. Seems to work great. I placed the two deep cycle batteries under the fwd settee next to the ballast vent (made a star-board platform and epoxied it to the hull to hold them level and flat, and strapped them to the forward flotation bulkhead) jumped their negative posts, and ran a 4-gauge jumper cable for each positive and negative to the buss bars under the galley seat.
.....Four buss bars from West Marine, mounted in a clear fishing-type plastic tackle-box with four 1/4-20 SS posts and SS wing-nuts on each bar, separated by the fishing box'es compartments. One buss-bar for the common negative all batteries and electrical stuff is routed to, one for the cranking battery's positive, and one for each of the deep-cycle positives. Then all wiring connections to meters, light feeds, power outlets, etc, and also the combiners, were made to/from these buss'. IN-Line fuses, for sure.....
...the power meter, and shore-power charger are wired to switches that can connect to any of the batteries separately or together if desired. In the case of needing to use the cranking battery for the cabin or lights, i can jump a short cable between buss-bars, but there is no other switch for that, because i don't want to accidently have the cranking battery used up. The "fishing tackle" buss-box's lid snaps shut over the buss bars and wires. Probably will take photos and post mod.
I am an electrical novice, but the logic of this wiring makes sense, and it seems safe as well as efficient. The only thing i haven't added is a dis-connect for the cranking battery to the motor, because i heard somewhere the motor electrics can get fried if the battery is dis-connected while the motor is running and i don't want anyone to be able to do that.
.... the combiner/splitter also has a signal wire that when connected to a positive, forces the two batteries combined, and when connected to a negative, forces the split. Using a DPDT switch one pole for the positives only, and the other for the signal wire, can provide even more control over the splitter/combiner. ( all the negative poles are combined already on the buss. )
.... the splitter/combiner also has a timer circuit of several minutes' delay that keeps it from hunting and cycling on threshholds.
So two batteries can be connected essentially parallel, but discharge separately, and won't charge each other. .
.....
I have three batteries:
.... one cranking battery under the galley seat, that is only wired to the motor for discharging-cranking, and two deep-cycle batteries (for everything else,) that are separated by a switch 1,2, Both, or Off. One combiner/splitter serves the cranking battery and whichever house battery is switched thru, and another combiner serves the two deep-cycle batteries. Therefore, the motor charges all three batteries, the cranking battery is only used for starting/running the motor, while the deep-cycle batteries can be discharged one at a time, or together as desired. Seems to work great. I placed the two deep cycle batteries under the fwd settee next to the ballast vent (made a star-board platform and epoxied it to the hull to hold them level and flat, and strapped them to the forward flotation bulkhead) jumped their negative posts, and ran a 4-gauge jumper cable for each positive and negative to the buss bars under the galley seat.
.....Four buss bars from West Marine, mounted in a clear fishing-type plastic tackle-box with four 1/4-20 SS posts and SS wing-nuts on each bar, separated by the fishing box'es compartments. One buss-bar for the common negative all batteries and electrical stuff is routed to, one for the cranking battery's positive, and one for each of the deep-cycle positives. Then all wiring connections to meters, light feeds, power outlets, etc, and also the combiners, were made to/from these buss'. IN-Line fuses, for sure.....
...the power meter, and shore-power charger are wired to switches that can connect to any of the batteries separately or together if desired. In the case of needing to use the cranking battery for the cabin or lights, i can jump a short cable between buss-bars, but there is no other switch for that, because i don't want to accidently have the cranking battery used up. The "fishing tackle" buss-box's lid snaps shut over the buss bars and wires. Probably will take photos and post mod.
I am an electrical novice, but the logic of this wiring makes sense, and it seems safe as well as efficient. The only thing i haven't added is a dis-connect for the cranking battery to the motor, because i heard somewhere the motor electrics can get fried if the battery is dis-connected while the motor is running and i don't want anyone to be able to do that.
Last edited by ALX357 on Thu Jun 23, 2005 12:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
We have the West Marine Combiner 50 and it works great -- as described. The two batteries charge together when the motor is run, but separate for House and Starting duties when the motor is off. If we need to bridge them for any reason we have a switch on our fuse panel that triggers it to combine via the remote lead mentioned earlier in the thread. It's a pretty nice little unit, though I think West Marine has replaced it with a newer model.ALX357 wrote:West Marine sells a combiner/splitter that lets you charge two batteries from the same source, but splits them when they are discharging.
BTW -- Support info and manuals can be found on the OEM manufacturer's site at http://www.yandina.com/
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argonaut
- Captain
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- Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:23 pm
- Location: '97 26X, Yammy 40 4s, Central Fla.
I've wondered about this after reading some Honda documentation.
The literature advertises "automatic fuel enrichment" for the BF50A. Maybe this is just electric choke, not sure. If so a little manual choke would substitute. But I am sure that the engine uses a CDI ignition system rather than points and distributer, and I'm not certain that the CDI black box works with depleted batteries.
I suspect that if your batteries read 11.8 volts the black box may still function as it draws relatively little current, but if the battery or batteries are truly dead, (9v...), then it may be impossible to pull start the thing.
It could be that slightly dead, (insufficient current to operate the starter motor) the engine may hand crank, but really dead and you'll be calling for a tow or sailing home.
Thanks for posting this Wes!
The literature advertises "automatic fuel enrichment" for the BF50A. Maybe this is just electric choke, not sure. If so a little manual choke would substitute. But I am sure that the engine uses a CDI ignition system rather than points and distributer, and I'm not certain that the CDI black box works with depleted batteries.
I suspect that if your batteries read 11.8 volts the black box may still function as it draws relatively little current, but if the battery or batteries are truly dead, (9v...), then it may be impossible to pull start the thing.
It could be that slightly dead, (insufficient current to operate the starter motor) the engine may hand crank, but really dead and you'll be calling for a tow or sailing home.
Thanks for posting this Wes!
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hamshog
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Wesley Kirchner
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2005 5:53 pm
replay
I too have a switch and can pull current from battery#1 battery #2 or both. As to the question of getting home. We were on our way to see a band play that evening, we called the other couple to tell them we would be late, since they live just around the cove from us they decided to bring us a battery to shorten the wait. I have taken both batteries to work and charged and tested both, both were bad. Batteries were five years old. Funny thing is I just used the boat one week before and not a problem. Motor has always started well.