Assessment of Venture 23

[apc1589]

Background information:
I have obtained a "free to a good home" Venture 23. I'm excited about the boat, but I'm also trying to take a realistic/practical approach to getting it back in the water. I'm trying to start by deciding if the boat is worth working on, or if it should be passed on to someone else (or the landfill).

My general philosophy/goal for this boat is to do the minimum repairs required to get it in the water as soon as possible. I'd like to start with a basic sailing hull. I'd take it out a few times and then work on the boat some more if we really enjoy the boat. Something like a handheld radio, some barrels or inflatable air bags in the cabin for emergency flotation if required, a manual bilge pump, and get the boat in the water. I'm a novice at this. I've sailed small open dinghies a fair bit, but nothing with a cabin. I may use it for weekend trips at some point, but I'm not starting with that goal.

I don't know what year the boat is from. I've crawled through the boat but haven't found any origin info.

The boat is on a trailer, and I have a pond at home where I can float the boat for testing. The boat has been in the water and is water-tight, at least from below. Rainwater gets in, but in manageable quantities.

Specific requests:
I'm looking for advice concerning key things to test/inspect on a Venture 23 (or general swing-keel Macgregor). The following is a list of some of the items I'm currently thinking about, but I'd also like to hear about items you think I'm missing and should look into.

Swing Keel
The keel winch was shot, so I haven't swung the keel yet. I have replaced the keel winch. I will launch the boat again and see how the keel moves. Is there anything in particular I should check regarding the keel? My current plan is to lower the keel to feel how it moves and then attempt to figure out how the locking pin installs. Assuming the keel swings smoothly, is there anything else I should be inspecting? I don't have any reason to suspect the attachment point between the lifting cable and keel is failing, but I haven't inspected it.

Structural Concerns
There are currently no bulkheads in the boat. My (limited) impression from looking at the boat is that the original wooden bulkheads aren't structurally required, but there should be a post under the mast step to transfer the load through the cabin space down to the keel trunk. Is that accurate? I could cut new plywood bulkheads if required. Does anyone know of a diagram for how the mast support was designed? I can cut a wooden post, but I'm curious about connections at each end.

I've looked at and grabbed the chainplates with pliers and they seem fine, but that's the extent of my inspection there so far. Is snugging up the chainplate nuts and then standing the mast (after dealing with the vertical load support under the mast step) a good approach to testing?

Lead Paint
This isn't a "minimum repair to get the boat in the water", but rather something that I'm thinking about when assessing whether the boat is worth working on. There's flaking lead paint throughout the cabin, and I have toddlers I'd like to enjoy the boat with. If making the boat safe for them requires extensive work, maybe this isn't the boat for us.

After the core structural repairs and first test sails, I'm thinking about pressure washing the interior to remove some of the old paint, then repainting to encapsulate the remaining lead paint. Does anyone have advice for dealing with lead paint exposure?

Missing Bowsprit
The bowsprit is missing. Does anyone have a diagram for dimensions and connection details for this? Would sailing without the bowsprit be a good starting point? I have a decent wood shop and supplies here, I could cut and bolt on an oak member reasonably easily.


Thanks a lot for taking the time to read the post, and an additional thanks if you have some expertise to share. I can provide specific photos of details if helpful.

[Starscream]

With Macgregors, especially old ones, sometimes the expense, time and effort required to refurbish isn't worth it, compared to the price of a good used one.

You could have a nice 26S for maybe $5k. Taking a crappy old boat and making it nice again would probably cost $5k plus a ton of work.

I know free is a nice place to start. But is it worth it? Lead paint? Structural issues? A ton of work, sanding, painting, repairing? Yikes.

I don't know enough about the Venture to answer your questions. But nothing in the cabin to support the mast down to the hull doesn't sound right.

[Jimmyt]

Background information:
I have obtained a "free to a good home" Venture 23. I'm excited about the boat, but I'm also trying to take a realistic/practical approach to getting it back in the water. I'm trying to start by deciding if the boat is worth working on, or if it should be passed on to someone else (or the landfill).

My general philosophy/goal for this boat is to do the minimum repairs required to get it in the water as soon as possible. I'd like to start with a basic sailing hull. I'd take it out a few times and then work on the boat some more if we really enjoy the boat. Something like a handheld radio, some barrels or inflatable air bags in the cabin for emergency flotation if required, a manual bilge pump, and get the boat in the water. I'm a novice at this. I've sailed small open dinghies a fair bit, but nothing with a cabin. I may use it for weekend trips at some point, but I'm not starting with that goal.

I don't know what year the boat is from. I've crawled through the boat but haven't found any origin info.

The boat is on a trailer, and I have a pond at home where I can float the boat for testing. The boat has been in the water and is water-tight, at least from below. Rainwater gets in, but in manageable quantities.

Specific requests:
I'm looking for advice concerning key things to test/inspect on a Venture 23 (or general swing-keel Macgregor). The following is a list of some of the items I'm currently thinking about, but I'd also like to hear about items you think I'm missing and should look into.

Swing Keel
The keel winch was shot, so I haven't swung the keel yet. I have replaced the keel winch. I will launch the boat again and see how the keel moves. Is there anything in particular I should check regarding the keel? My current plan is to lower the keel to feel how it moves and then attempt to figure out how the locking pin installs. Assuming the keel swings smoothly, is there anything else I should be inspecting? I don't have any reason to suspect the attachment point between the lifting cable and keel is failing, but I haven't inspected it.

Structural Concerns
There are currently no bulkheads in the boat. My (limited) impression from looking at the boat is that the original wooden bulkheads aren't structurally required, but there should be a post under the mast step to transfer the load through the cabin space down to the keel trunk. Is that accurate? I could cut new plywood bulkheads if required. Does anyone know of a diagram for how the mast support was designed? I can cut a wooden post, but I'm curious about connections at each end.

I've looked at and grabbed the chainplates with pliers and they seem fine, but that's the extent of my inspection there so far. Is snugging up the chainplate nuts and then standing the mast (after dealing with the vertical load support under the mast step) a good approach to testing?

Lead Paint
This isn't a "minimum repair to get the boat in the water", but rather something that I'm thinking about when assessing whether the boat is worth working on. There's flaking lead paint throughout the cabin, and I have toddlers I'd like to enjoy the boat with. If making the boat safe for them requires extensive work, maybe this isn't the boat for us.

After the core structural repairs and first test sails, I'm thinking about pressure washing the interior to remove some of the old paint, then repainting to encapsulate the remaining lead paint. Does anyone have advice for dealing with lead paint exposure?

Missing Bowsprit
The bowsprit is missing. Does anyone have a diagram for dimensions and connection details for this? Would sailing without the bowsprit be a good starting point? I have a decent wood shop and supplies here, I could cut and bolt on an oak member reasonably easily.


Thanks a lot for taking the time to read the post, and an additional thanks if you have some expertise to share. I can provide specific photos of details if helpful.

You don't need a handheld radio if you have a cell phone. You should not be going very far in that boat during the initial sailing season. However, check the requirements for boats of that length and get the required safety equipment to be legal. Have you found a hull number yet? Did you get a bill of sale?

You don't mention sails. What kind of shape are the sails, mast, and standing rigging in? Sails are not cheap, but if you got the boat free, the cost of sails can be considered offset a bit I guess.

You need good, fitting PFDs and you and your crew need to wear them.

As soon as you can, post pics of your boat. If you need instructions, just ask.

Lead paint abatement is really not something that a DIY should be doing. Are your kids in the paint chip eating stage or are they old enough to be trusted not to eat anything that might flake off? If you do it, consider a chemical strip after dry scraping with a respirator and HEPA vacuum. Don't sand it. Don't pressure wash it. Pressure washing will create a lot of hazardous wastewater to deal with, so I wouldn't do that. You need to bag the waste and ideally get it to a hazardous landfill. Regulations in your state may prevent you from doing this legally, so investigate before you proceed.

If your kids will eat paint chips, you need to find another boat.

If your kids won't eat paint chips, you can dry scrape, HEPA vac, and strip or encapsulate.

You need to download the manual for your boat as a reference.

I'm sure you will get more advice when you post pictures.

Finally, I would ask you if the value of the project equals the vale of sailing. Sounds like you have a fairly sizable project to get it ready to sail. If you enjoy a project, this might work. If you just want to go sailing, you might consider looking for another boat.

Initially, I'm with Starscream. You would likely be better off with another boat. My main issue is the lead paint abatement issue. If you are a skilled woodworker, you can likely fix almost anything else that would be wrong.

[apc1589]

Thanks Starscream & Jimmyt.

I'm certainly not opposed to starting over with a different boat. I don't want to jump straight to that conclusion, but I started the thread because I'm certainly questioning whether the project of repairing this boat is worth beginning.

I think the Venture 23 looks good, is an appropriate size for my family now, and I like the idea of a cutter rig. I'm not married to this boat, but if there's a not-silly route to making it fit our needs I'll pursue it.

[apc1589]

Hull number
Hull number is MACN1043M77F. I wasn't aware of hull numbers on the transom. I was looking for a steel plate inside. I believe this indicates the boat is from 1977.

Sails & more
I have sails, mast, boom, rudder, and at least some of the standing rigging. I haven't inspected the rigging other than to see that at least of it seems to be there. I did inspect the sails and decided they were fine to start with, but at the point where I decide "I really like this boat" and start making it "nice" again I'd also plan to buy new sails. They're in serviceable-but-not-great shape. Enough to put the boat in the water and sail it for a while with low standards.

Lead Paint
Very good points Jimmyt. I hadn't thought about the waste water from pressure washing. I wonder if something like sand blasting makes sense. Dry scraping would clear some of it pretty easily I expect, but not all of it. My kids are 100% at the paint-eating stage, so if I can't manage the lead problem the boat will have to move on to another owner.

[apc1589]

Venture 23 Manual
I haven't been able to find this online. Any tips on where to look?

Am I looking for a project?
I've been enjoying tinkering with the boat a bit, but it's less fun if I can't bring the kids inside with me while tinkering. I'm happy to do some work (say 30 hours) to get the boat in the water (just a safe, sailing hull with the minimum legally required systems) and am a reasonably skilled woodworker, but I'm not looking for a major project. I have simple ambitions for the boat and mostly want to go sailing in a trailerable, simple boat of about this size. The "politics" of the boat are that it's an easier sell for me to obtain a free boat and slowly spend time and money on it than it is to spend $5000 all at once, but that's not a hard rule. I want to pursue a logical course, which might be just to buy a better starting point. I do like the looks of this boat, but I'm not married to it.

[apc1589]

[Jimmyt]

Here is the brochure for it.

http://www.ne-ts.com/mac/kk/kk-204v23bro.jpg

Cutter rig. Cool boat.

I'm wondering if it's covered under the venture manual or if there is a specific manual for that boat. I thought it would be available for download, but haven't found one either. Shame on me for assuming...

Maybe an owner will see your post and add some clarity.

This is a link to the 77 venture manual, but may not be exactly what you're looking for.
http://www.ne-ts.com/mac/kk/kk-10877manual.html

If I had rug munchers, I'd chemically strip it, doing very small areas at a time, so I could control the waste. Put down drop cloths below the work area and drop all of your waste into it, bag it, and dispose. Then, paint over it to seal any residue in. You won't be making small pieces, or dust. Safer for you and the kids. Absolutely no to sand blasting. You'll create a bigger problem than you have trying to blast it. Don't sand it, don't scrape it (revised this since you have small children).

I don't think 30 hours is going to get you there, but I may be projecting my expectations rather than yours. Sounds like the lead paint is your big issue. How did you determine that you're dealing with lead paint?

Is the hull and deck in good condition?

[Starscream]

Hoo-boy, those photos!

Everyone is different, but to be honest if I didn't have a boat and really wanted one, I still would not touch that one. Personal statement. From someone who just spent a few days sanding the bottom of my X, let me tell you that I never, ever, want to do anything like that again. And those photos show a boat that needs a whole lot more than just a sanding. Hours, and hours of hard work, that's what I see. To get a boat that still needs several thousand dollars of basic material upgrades.

If you have the time and the drive, that Venture could become a nice boat. It could also become a boat that you worked hours and hours and hours on to finally give up and send it to the scrapyard.

Personally, I'd start more with something like this:

https://www.kijiji.ca/v-voilier/ouest-d ... 1491567032

Or this:
https://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/30759

This one looks really nice (sold a while ago, but for reference)
https://sailingtexas.com/201901/smacgregor26s172.html



You always need more space on a boat. Those kids won't stay small very long, so why not start with something that needs no work, is ready to go, has space to grow, etc. etc.? Just sayin'. You could spend hundreds of hours and dollars working on that boat and end up with something still worth less than $2k. So unless your heart is really in it, and you are ready for work (!!!), my advice points away from that boat.

[apc1589]

Thanks Jimmyt & Starscream.

I had seen that general Venture manual, but not the V23-specific brochure. It's pretty neat to see it, and the detailed photos and specs are helpful.

Hull & deck seem to be in fine condition. The companionway hatch has some damage, and the tracks that guide the slide are missing. The pop-top seems solid but to be missing some hardware or cable to hold it in place properly when elevated. Deck feels surprisingly solid when I walk along it.

Starscream, I'm looking at other boats as per your encouragement. I'm still not totally giving up on the V23, but the lead paint has me a bit discouraged so I'll need to do some more reading and thinking about that. Thanks for the chemical strip suggestion Jimmyt.

I'll start with the lead paint abatement research, then come back to the structural questions for the boat.

[Jimmyt]

Good plan.

And I understand running the project in a pay as you go fashion. I remember the little kid phase. Everything I did during that period was make-do and pay-as-you-go.

Still curious about how you determined that you've got lead paint, if you don't mind me asking. If the boat was manufactured in 1977, I'm assuming that it would have been painted after that. House paint during that period would likely have very little, if any lead. Maybe you have an industrial coating? If it was white paint from the 1920's - 1950's, we could be pretty sure that you were dealing with lead.

It would be good to know what you're dealing with as you make your plan.

[Russ]

That's one of my favorite Mac boats. It could be a fun boat to clean up and fun to sail.

Don't you have a title for the boat and trailer that would ID the year?

How do you know the paint is lead-based? That seems like a big issue if it truly is. That would be the deal-breaker for me.

I would inspect the keel before investing too much else. I'm not sure if they were steel back then. If so, you could have a rusted mess under there.

What is the trailer condition? Some of those steel trailers when exposed to salt corroded by the tongue. Inspect that because you wouldn't want to invest a lot of time to have it all come apart on the road.

It looks like the mast support in the cabin would be easy to fabricate.

[apc1589]

Sorry, I forgot to reply to the lead paint and ownership papers questions.

Lead Paint
My mother walked by, saw her grandkids using the boat as a playhouse while I worked on the boat, asked if the boat had lead paint. I scoffed and said no, they made tons of these boats and I haven't heard people complaining about lead paint. Then I woke up the next morning, sighed and said "better listen to your mother." I scraped lightly with a pocket knife at some of the headliner paint to clean/break it up a bit, then tested with one of those cigarette-shaped home lead test kits. Two embedded glass vials that you crush, chemicals mix, then you rub on the suspect paint. Came back positive for lead. I haven't done additional tests, but I will before spending time stripping paint.

Ownership Papers
The seller wrote up a simple receipt saying boat free, trailer $200. He didn't know the boat type, year, really anything about it. He had bought the boat but never sailed it, just wanted it out of his yard. If I need more paperwork some day for registration I can talk to him again to sign additional papers. He's nearby and friendly.

Hull number seems to indicate year of origin is 1977.

Trailer
Trailer with the boat is in acceptable condition. If the boat moves on I plan to keep the trailer if possible. I don't believe this is the original trailer for the boat, but I don't have anything to base that assumption on other than that the trailer doesn't look that rough.


Great photo, Russ. That shows the mast support nicely. I wasn't thinking to replace that bulkhead, but I was wondering how to secure the post and can see how the bulkhead really does the job nicely. Continuous support in one axis, then the steel bracket to pin it in the other. That's one question solved.

[Russ]

I am no expert on lead paint. But I'm glad to hear you actually tested it. I thought they banned that stuff in '78 but apparently this boat is right in that zone.

Jimmy is a knowledgeable guy and I would respect his opinion. To me, lead paint remediation seems like a big project. But I could be wrong. And the issue might not be a big deal if your kids aren't eating paint chips. Way past my pay grade.

You are probably right about the trailer. I doubt an original trailer would still be intact. If it's in decent shape, that's a biggie. Check the tires. They have a lifespan and I see many trailers on the roadside from failed rubber.

Check that keel. I'm not sure what Macgregor used back then. If it's fiberglass, then you are in good shape. Just hardware to worry about. If it's steel, it must be rusted to bits. Again, I'm not familiar with that boat. But that is one of my favorite Mac boats.

Yea, the boat looks dirty, but all that will clean up easily. If you want to see how these boats can clean up, look at what Hart did here
https://macgregorsailors.com/forum/view ... =8&t=27558

Good luck with this boat. I am hoping you choose to bring her back to life. Keep us posted.

[Jimmyt]

Thanks Russ. Nicest thing anyone ever said about me. Lots better than what my wife tells me when she says; "you aren't the dumbest guy I ever married".

Did a bit of asbestos, lead, and mold remediation, incidental to military renovation projects. Not surprised you got a positive result, but wanted to make sure you weren't just assuming lead.

I have 8 month old grand twins, and if it was my boat, I'd remove the lead paint. If it's not fully adhered, there's no trusting it. Little kids are like vacuum cleaners, and they are the most susceptible to damage.

First, register the boat in your name before you do anything else. If you can't get it registered, you need to know now. I've seen this go sideways, and it's no fun. You don't say that the previous owner registered the boat, so I'm concerned about that.

Then, as Russ suggests, do a thorough inspection of hull, keel, trunk, deck, etc and make sure there are no other big surprises.

Then, go get a few different paint strippers and try them in a few spots to see what works easiest. Then, do an area about 24"x24" and get a gauge for how much time the interior strip will take. Then, you can make the call on whether you think it's worth it. It's a cool boat.

I think the general consensus on tires is 5 years from the manufacture date, if you tow far and/or fast.