Crossing the Bar.

[mung]

Hi Folks,

First timer here.

Thanks to moderators, organisers and contributers of this excellent site. I now know heaps about Macgregors but have never been on one.

I live in a beautiful area in southern Australia with excellent day sailing grounds tanterlisingly close. Trouble is it is separated by an estuary mouth with a large sandbar, sometime with large breaking surf.

I love this bar. Great 'fat' waves over agently shoalling bottom but can still be quite large. This causes them break gentlely from the top but not crash. Make great and safe surfing for me on my surf ski.

However for boats this is an entirely different matter. Occasionally it kills people. Boats, whether planning hulls or displacement hulls don't surf relliably. You may get away with it at times, but when the boat decides it wants to broach it will. A check of you tube videos on 'crossing the bar' will confirm that, and give you an idea of what Im talking about.

Slow displacement boats are sitting ducks. Ive tried putting large (for the size of boat)motors on seaworth displacement boats but could not get more than 12 knots. Not enough.......more power just means deeper hole at stern.

In running the bar in my deep V planing powerboat (now sold) going out is rarely a problem, coming in is. The safe technique is to wait well beyond the break line for a small set. Accererate onto the back of a small wave, follow it in, throttle back as it slows down and in no circumstances overtake the wave.

Here is some information I have learnt or read about. Please feel free to add or disagree.
1) Always try to come in around high tide. Waves are substancially smaller with incoming tide. One to two hours before the top is a good time.
2) Be aware if offshore winds are forecast. Offshore winds produce a glassy ocean and ideal sailing and surfing conditions but swells are more pronownced. Wind opposing chop kills it, wind opposing swells makes waves stand up and holds then up.
3) Be aware that swells come from a weather hundreds or thousands of kilometers away. So dont expect conditions to be the same as when you went out, even though the local conditions have not changed.
4)Ocean swells travel at around 22 knots in deep ocean (varies)
5)they begin slowing down and become closer together at depths like 1-200m.
6) When they get to a 3m deep bar the are doing about 13 knots
7) once in aerated water at the break-line boats lose some boyancy, stability, lose a degree of directional control, propellers lose bite on water. (boats dont float on air).
Never play in a powerboat at the foot of a crest. Exciting yes,but they suck back with considerable force just before breaking.


So now to my question. Would a Mac M be a suitable boat for daysailing or motoring out for a spot of fishing beyond the break in good weather only, and then getting me back if the entrance decides to stand up while Im out.

I am cautous and exprienced sailer and understand the tenderness, and ordinary sailing qualities of the boat, but are prepared to trade these off for the caravanability of the boat. I have read about Macs ordinary steering qualities, but they are selfdraining which most powerboats are not, and self righting so these are positive factors for a bar-crossing Mac.

If it could take me outside it is the answer to my dreams.

Any comments greatly apprechiated, and please share any bar crossing knowledge and experiences.

Thank you Mung

[Steve K]

Mung,
First understand, I have no experience in your issue.
Having said that, it always seemed to me that the Mac (in this case the 26X I owned) tended to go over breaking waves, more than some power boats I've been on that seemed to squat or tend to punch through them more.

I sail a lake where weather can instantly produce 6 foot breaking waves that come from several directions at once. There is no escaping getting abeam in a trough sometimes. These waves would also be very close together (seemed like only a couple times wider than the boat sometimes).
The boat always road over the waves. It would rock violently sometimes, but never so much as got any water in the cockpit.

When crossing these kinds of waves, the X would bounce up over and down the other side and the prop might leave the water when peaking every wave. The boat was never difficult to keep on course in these conditions.
(I'll qualify that statement by saying this was not fun, nor am I fearless. There were times when I was thinking about the limits of my life insurance policy).

Never got over run by following seas either.

So again, not really knowing you situation, this may be of no help, but the 26X always seemed to be built for such things. It surfs beautifully (with the centerboard retracted). It has the power to get up to surfing speed. It seems to bob over waters that other boats want to punch through. Foils can be raised and lowered, ballast can be filled and emptied, so the boat can be configured at will. The boat will broach, (done it, but due to operator error) but will always stand back up on her lines. And other than spray over the rails, I never got wet.

Because of the versatility, this boat can be many things to a lot of different people and situations.

One more thing. The extent of my experience was with no more than 4 adults on board and for the most part, by myself.
(wouldn't load eight or more people on this boat)

Best Breezes,
Steve K.

[Steve K]

Mung.
When you say "crossing the bar"
I would say, I would attempt this in a Mac 26X:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tL4rCcsphzg

or this, if I was well familiar with the inlet and well practiced:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=en ... kabN3LZUS8

This?
Not even in their boats:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiyq3VfM3eQ

[mastreb]

Hi mung,

Understanding that I too have never done this, I do have some experience in big swell open-ocean running. Given that you have experience crossing the bar in a powerboat, I'm comfortable recommending that you've got the requisite experience to do it in a Mac M or X, and that the boat can most certainly do it safely if a deep V powerboat can. There's certainly no other sailboat on the planet better adapted to this specific purpose--the only one that would come close is the Hunter H260 or the Odin, both of which are knockoffs of the X but much heavier.

Here's the technique I would use:

1) Largest feasible motor. You need to know you can speed up to match the speed of a wave behind you, so I would power the boat with a 90hp Evinrude ETEC. This will allow to reliably get up to 25 knots in these conditions.

2) Obviously you're not sailing through the bar, you're powering. All sails fully furled, mast up, boom secured. Consider a backstay. Transit the bar with no ballast, and all boards up, at whatever speed is appropriate to the conditions above 12 knots. Normally I don't recommend ballast out, but you probably need to be as high in the water as possible crossing the bar--you'll have to decide, it's certainly safer ballast in. Do not get beam to the waves with ballast out however, as they could potentially roll you over. This is why you need a big motor--if you're overcome from behind because you cannot stay ahead of a large roller, it will rotate you to beam and you'll be rolled by it.

The boat will behave much like a typical cabin cruiser, although much more tender because the mast weight aloft, on your way out. Probably more like a lightweight sport-fisher in that respect. It's probably lighter than your powerboat was, and will certainly rock a lot more.

4) Once you are to your sailing grounds, you'll go through a procedure to completely switch modes: open the ballast tank gate valve and vent and fill ballast, disconnect the motor from steering, raise the motor, lower rudders and daggerboard, hoist the main, unfurl the headsail, and now you're a sailboat.

5) To go back in, it's the opposite procedure: Furl all sails, raise all boards, lower the motor, connect it to steering, and open the ballast gate and vent. Begin your run towards the bar about five minutes before you'll reach it, so you can dump ballast. Once the ballast is out, close the gate and vent and then power across the bar.

You can fix the sloppy steering of a Mac with some tuning effort or by replacing the linkages with Hydraulic steering, which is not expensive, and I'd probably recommend it in your case. In any case, the sloppiness is a problem for the rudders, which you'll use during sailing, and not for the outboard which is just a firm as any powerboat. So you needn't worry about the steering for crossing the bar.

The part of this the Mac is not fantastic for is the fishing: casting through sailing shrouds is a PIA. You may want to leave the mast and shrouds home on days you intend to fish, and use it as a pure cabin cruiser. It does fine at that as well, and removing the mast and shrouds is not difficult.

Good luck!

[Freedom77]

G'day Mate. How's the Winter down under. I heard a piece on the radio the other day that said Australians are the happiest people on Earth because they live as far away as possible from the Kardashians Fair Winds and Full Sails...Old Salt

[Boblee]

G'day Mung and welcome.
Don't know your bar but the should handle it with care and it sounds like you have a fair idea what you are doing so you will sort out the boat before trying it I am sure, don't know that I would like to try it with no ballast but sure you will work it out after putting it through it's paces as for fishing we don't fish off ours.
We tow a dinghy as it just gets too messy and awkward on the but as mastreb suggests perhaps by taking the sailing gear off it could be ok but even then if the sea is at all rough they wallow bad especially at anchor still not fun.
Where are you sailing from?

[bartmac]

see next post

[bartmac]

Having no actual bar crossing experience beyond some charter fishing tours but living on the east coast NSW(and owning a Mac26X)...I've seen most bars in both benign and in full flight(its actually a special trip to the rivers and see the bar when there's a swell running).....and well I'd be very hesitant going outside given the interaction of tides and swell on a lot of bars and the possibility of being caught outside!!! The main area of concern would be the very open stern and the amount of freeboard with out the benefit of a permanent keel

[dlandersson]

I've always wanted to see the Bay of Fundy.

Having no actual bar crossing experience beyond some charter fishing tours but living on the east coast NSW(and owning a Mac26X)...I've seen most bars in both benign and in full flight(its actually a special trip to the rivers and see the bar when there's a swell running).....and well I'd be very hesitant going outside given the interaction of tides and swell on a lot of bars and the possibility of being caught outside!!! The main area of concern would be the very open stern and the amount of freeboard with out the benefit of a permanent keel

[Buell_S1W]

I've crossed the Westport Bar in NZ (featured in the latter half of the 3rd video link) twice in my with two passengers. Mast down, ballast in, rudders up & a very small amount of daggerboard. Conditions were favourable but still exciting enough! I felt 60HP was the minimum required & I wouldn't want to do it frequently or if the weather turned.

[Catigale]

I've crossed the flats at Westport, MA with 7 years of local knowledge. The only hard part is knowing I will have a bunch of locals yelling at me warning me of shallow water. Charts,tide charts, and situational awareness abound.

[kadet]

Noosa Bar has pretty bad reputation, Noosa Coast Guard has done some experimenting with Jordon Series drogues https://www.youtube.com/user/seriesdrogue/videos

Would not cross a bar coming back in a waterbago without one
Or a 90HP ETEC to get out in the first place.

[azav8tor]

Just a little video of what a Mac can do. This is one of my favorites.

http://youtu.be/nK1K1LUE-Qc

[dlandersson]

Nice reason to get a mac 26X or 26M

Just a little video of what a Mac can do. This is one of my favorites.

http://youtu.be/nK1K1LUE-Qc

[dlandersson]

The Bay of Fundy supposedly has the most severe tides in the world.

"This description can easily match the Bay of Fundy, for even though these people were used to currents and tides they are likely to have been impressed by the Bay of Fundy, if they saw it, and probably told stories about it for a long time afterwards."

Noosa Bar has pretty bad reputation, Noosa Coast Guard has done some experimenting with Jordon Series drogues https://www.youtube.com/user/seriesdrogue/videos

Would not cross a bar coming back in a waterbago without one
Or a 90HP ETEC to get out in the first place.