Lesson learned When sailing off the wind...

[Ixneigh]

So I was sailing almost dead down wind today. First I had the main up, then later the working jib. We ran wing on wing for a while in a freshening wind. Doing about five knots like that. It became appearent that I would have to jibe to sail through a pass in a sandbank. As soon as I did so, the boat rounded up and went nearly on her side. Ok not surprising. Struck the jib. She would neither fall off or come about with a full main. Way over powered at this point. Normally I would raise the board and let her fall off but I had a shoal right under my lee. Had to use the engine to help her tack and get her pointed down wind again. pita all the way around.
I've decided that as sop I will from now on never fly a full main off the wind unless its really light winds.
Once I lost the jib, with a reefed main she would have been in much better control.
The wind crept up on me, but the whole bay was squall-ridden right from the git. I should have had that reef in to begin with. Old keelboat habits are hard to shake! My old yawl could hang onto her main pretty much no matter what.

[bscott]

Sailing DDW wing on wing invites the very problem you had as there is a tendency to concentrate on keeping the sails full and ignoring the weather directly astern. Reefing the main is extremely difficult from that tack where as running on a broad reach gives you a better sense of weather and is easier to hove to for reefing the main.

Gybing the main is an advanced tactic and requires coordinated crew work beginning with pulling the main to midship before gybing the wheel and slowly releasing the main sheet to complete the gybe.

My prior boats were keel and I too have learned to reef early--MACS MUST BE REEFED EARLY So what if you need the OB--isn't electric tilt and start great That's the beauty of Mac ownership

Last Sunday, with my wife and 12 yr old grandaughter on board, was a great day sailing on the 2nd reef averaging 4 knts under total control. No clentched fists or nasty words--just big smiles and hugs all around

Bob

[Whipsyjac]

Ixneigh, so far I've been a dingy sailor. Being in command of my I've happily beat to windward and made an 11 Mile passage on a close to beam reach.

There are a couple reasons I'm very interested in your post. First, the Admiral is almost solely interested in progress toward a destination ergo reaching and running. Second, I'm scared to gybe. Popular fears about the boom causing head trauma and MOB aside, I've broken stuff on my 2 attempts to gybe.(I later learned that the rigging riveted to an aluminum boom on a laser is prone to breakage).

My usual course of action is the chicken Gybe(or outside gybe?) where I ease the sheet and slowly turn to a broad reach, then a close reach, then a tack ,then reach, until my Gybe is complete ie turning 270 instead of 90.

So I'm asking you to slow down your description and add some more details to help me understand the chain of events.

It sounds to me like you brought the boom close hauled, turned through the wind, and when the wind switched sides the main filled and you where knocked down(or almost) causing the boat to round up completely so you were facing to windward. Is this correct?

Willy

[hschumac]

I am with Bob, the key to non-scary gybes is sheeting in on the main, changing course a slight bit to bring the boom across, then easing the main out to fill it again. Gybe complete with no drama and under control.

[mastreb]

Ditto sheeting in the main to gybe. Breakage is the main thing I'm worried about since we keep all heads clear of the boom when tacking or gybing.

I dipped the motor twice last weekend sailing in confused winds near submerged shoals (with convenient warning posts to hit). These boats go to leeward very rapidly at lower speeds--below 2.4 knots you're likely making as much or more leeway than headway on a beam reach, and this can make moving past a leeward obstacle a bit of a fright until you can get some power up. Didn't need to start the motor, but I was concerned.

Dipping the motor when shut off will also get you quite a bit more drag at the stern and really helps moderate round-ups in a situation like this. Firstly it'll take a half-knot off your speed, and secondly, it moves the drag fulcrum aft of the daggerboard/centerboard which changes the pivot point of the round up, resulting in a reduced round-up with a larger arc. It helps reduce all kinds of weather helm in my experience.

Because the boat handles much better with the prop in the water, it's my second go-to (after sheeting out the main and before reefing) when I want to reduce speed and gain control. It also helps to balance the steering if you keep the motor linkage connected while sailing (which I do).

I suppose it's similar to running a drogue (but I've never done that).

[kitcat]

Interesting post about the dangers of gibing, and I'm sure most of us have been in the position with a freshening breeze behind us of which we are unaware until the time comes to turn.

It's so true that Macs sail like dinghys, and I've found that a similar gibing technique can work well too. When I was young and learning to sail, one of our instructors was a young lad, who was an excellent dinghy racer, fit, fast and capable, and his gibe technique was to stand up in the dinghy whilst running dead downwind wing on wing, and pull in the mainsheet as fast as possible, whilst moving the tiller just enough to get the wind on the other side, just as the main was centered, he then let the mainsheet out in a barely controlled fashion, very fast, but with just enough brake to stop it doing any harm. That was obviously his 'racing' gibe, but I have more or less mastered the technique and it seems to work, but it can still be a dangerous manoeuvre as demonstrated by Ixneigh. Thank goodness it all turned out all right.

A good tip to leave the motor down, I'll remember that one.

Paul

[bscott]

mastreb--you are right about the extra control of the engine in the water. The X's center board should be deployed about 1/2 down on a beam reach to reduce lee slippage--but that is not easy to do since the CB will not lower right away due to friction in the CB trunk--so--the skipper must plan ahead and lower the board in advance by luffing up and the board will lower slowly. Gybing requirers lots of advance planning in winds over 15 knts.

Bob

[kevinnem]

When you did the gybe, did you bring the sheet in ? or did you let the sail fly (violently) from side to side. If you learned on small boat that just let it fly then you might not know that to gybe you

1) sheet in all the way
2) gybe(sail moves about 1 foot from side 1 to side 2)
3) let the sheet out on the new tack.

Small boat lose there momentum and speed quickly, so people gybe them and want the sail full again NOW! they also so something called a "roll tack" were you intentionally "round up " the boat do the tack.

[Ixneigh]

Ok here's the slowed down version. I'm cruising the middle keys, bayside. The winds had been at least 20 all week, with squalls. About the time I was thoroughly tired of that business, it seemed to lay down to fifteen. There were dark clouds all over but I figured I'd be ok heading south with just the main. At that point my course was a steep broad reach. Fine. Away we go, making 4 knots. Typical lackluster off the wind performance due to not having a specialized downwind sail. Fine anyway. I'm in no rush and I'm by my self. I'd been motoring the past few days and now the weather was decent for sailing.
Soon the wind abates, nearly dieing entirely and shifting more on the beam just as i need it to sail through a marked pass. Beh. now I need a jib. I drag my feet setting it, waiting for a rain squall to blow by in front of me. These things seem to be moving a bit at an angle to the surface winds. So now we got the jib up and The winds begin to pick up again slowly until we are doing five plus, back on a steep reach. I can just keep the rumbline to the next mark and have the jib not smothered by the main. However, after that one, I find myself having to run wing on wing.
Right then is where I should have reefed. Going down wind its easy to forget the strength of the wind. It had been sneaking up on me for two hours. I notice there is a squall behind me but it looks like it might miss us. It's all I can do to hold the next mark, which marks another pass. In an effort to try to get a better angle, I do a controlled jibe (sp) in the method talked about. Head up, sheet in turn off the wind slightly and release the sheet. Now the jib is flogging and the boats on the verge of being overpowered but I leave it for a few minutes until I think I have the angle I need to wing on wing it through this pass. Another jibe, this time not so controlled. Pass is about quarter mile away. The boats galloping towards it and I'm starting to have second thoughts about this plan. I can keep the main and jib filled but the boats squirrly due to gusts and the centerboard, that I had left half down from earlier. Suddenly the wind veers and gets pretty strong. That squall is passing to the west as I had figured it would but it's affecting my wind anyway. I can no longer sail through the pass with this setup and am now too close to the shoals to screw around any longer. I bring the boat beam to the wind intending to strike the jib and go through under main only. The boat goes right over. After getting the jib down (releasing the wrong halyard first ) and muzzled I find the boat is essentially stalled. And making leeway fast. The boards half down but she won't stand that full main. There's no way she can tack, and even if I could make her fall off, I have no room. And no room to try to sweet talk her. She needs to do it like right frickin now! Ergo the motor.

No harm no foul. Dinged pride perhaps but only because I still have habits I gained on a 16,000 lb 33 ft keel boat. She had no problem tacking ever. Not with that kind of mass.

I decided i need A small staysail that sets perfectly. Maybe hang a halyard from the spreaders. It does not need to be big. No cutter rig for me. This sail will go up in cases where I have to deal with a lot of wind. It goes up when the jib comes down and It will help her to tack. No substitute for a small staysail in times like that.
Ill probably order a new main before the next cruise. This ones too light for the conditions I've been sailing in lately. I'll set that bullet proof staysail up the first chance I get though.

[Catigale]

Ix....I think your abilities have outgrown that stock main..I bet a nice Challenge Dacron 5 oz main would have tacked ok

I remember the first time I got nailed coming off DDW..and so do the kids....

[Whipsyjac]

Thanks Ixneigh,

Sounds like you were more frustrated than anything else. I definitely have more to learn.

Willy

[mastreb]

mastreb--you are right about the extra control of the engine in the water. The X's center board should be deployed about 1/2 down on a beam reach to reduce lee slippage--but that is not easy to do since the CB will not lower right away due to friction in the CB trunk--so--the skipper must plan ahead and lower the board in advance by luffing up and the board will lower slowly. Gybing requirers lots of advance planning in winds over 15 knts.

Bob

Similar issue with the Daggerboard on the M--it won't drop immediately when it's under pressure because you're moving. If you decide you have to get it down, you may have to tack to get it to drop. Or steer into a wake--all the shaking and moving will get it down.

[mika]

Really sad, isn't it, that time and again we hear on this website how numerous - and experienced - MacGregor sailors have to resort to using an outboard motor, in one way or another, to help us sail this vessel? I also am extremely disappointed how often I have to spend the day with a reefed main to keep my ears out of the water, even when the wind is not all that heavy - much worse when you have a gusty day, which I have about half of the time. Way too tender! I've effectively sailed many different sailboats since my youth and I am now in my sixties, but I have experienced nothing like my MacGregorM, which I somehow have come to love and I am determined to make her behave more like a normal sailboat. In the meantime,I have an unhappy admiral who remembers the other sailboats we've had. . . .I agree on the controlled jibe technique described above - it works for me.

[Ixneigh]

Well it is a power sailor but that's not why i bought it. I like the other two features room and shoal draft. And looks. I think for my part learning how to sail the boat, along with fine tuning the rigging and sails will solve most of the issues. Plus another few hundred pounds of lead maybe. I canNOT imagine what the past few days would have been like without the 350 pounds of ballast I already put in. The oem sails are starting to pi$$ me off as well. That jib doesn't set well on the factory supplied deck tracks. It has a big scoop in the bottom and rubs on the bow pulpit. The lead block wants to be about where the chain plates are now. It also needs a reef point for those of us numbskulls who hate roller furling I'll see if Judy can make something that will set nicely on the factory hardware.

As an additional point I probably would have gotten into trouble with any modern light displacement boat. You cant expect it to tack in a few boat lengths with only a couple knots of way on her unless she's got a barn door rudder and weighs three tonnes. I had a stout tiller I could coax the boat around with in the event she got in irons. That was a fiberglass h-23 knockoff I once owned.

[Catigale]

The tender nature of the Mac comes purely and simply from its low mass. That's an intrinsic design feature which mskes it both inexpensive and trailerable

Complaining about it is a bit like posting that no one has fit a family of 10 into their Mini on a mini motor car board IMHO

Using the motor when you are in trouble is a smart thing to do , when it happens to me I try to go back and think of what I could have done differently. It happens less and less.

I was out with Steve on Lake George in 20 knots gusting to 30... Reefed main, furled in Genny .

We got stuck on one tack and quickly started up and pushed through it