mast hound angle question

[vizwhiz]

I notice that my forestay goes up to what amounts to the mast hound (actually the two stock Mac stainless tabs that act as a hound) and that there is a small angle formed between the two, meaning you can't draw a straight line from the forestay up through the mast hound...does this make sense?

It is as though the tabs can't quite come down alongside the mast far enough to be pulled out straight.

I was thinking that maybe the bolt that holds the top end of the forestay, which pinches the two tabs of the hound together, is too short and makes the tabs too close together so they can't angle down far enough...?? But then if the bolt is any longer, it would leave room for the top of the forestay to move side-to-side and not stay centered in the hound...

Is this okay? Any thoughts?

[Sumner]

If anything I would loosen the bolt through the mast a touch, but you don't want slack between them and the mast. Also make sure that bolt is either double nutted, nuts jammed, or we have and I think they came with a nylock nut.

Also how is the tension on your forestay. Can you just pin it or do you have to loosen the turnbuckle, pin it and then tighten the turnbuckle? Or do you have a Johnson Lever? Can't remeber if you have hank-on sails or not.

If the forestay is tensioned correctly and there is still a slight angle I don't think I would worry much.

On another topic are you ever getting down to where we have the Endeavour with your work. I need a couple measurements on the boat and wondered if you could take them if you are in that area. There is no hurry at all on them. I think I lost your cell and home number, got a new phone . If you don't get down that way it isn't a big problem as I think I can get by without them,

Sum

Our Endeavour 37

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[vizwhiz]

Thanks Sum - the bolt through the mast is "snug", and nylock'd, but you can still swing the tangs. However, because they're dimpled, they don't swing down all the way to align with the forestay. The forestay is tight - not so tight that I have to loosen the turnbuckle, but I have to get down on the trailer tongue and "hang" most of my weight on the furler drum to get the pin in (I weigh just under 230), and that is in combination with the mast raising system block-and-tackle...I leave it attached, pull it tight to put as much tension on the mast at the hound as I feel comfortable pulling with, then go hang on it to finish it up. So it's pretty tight. But it doesn't matter, the dimples keep the tangs from sliding down next to the mast any further.

Not sure where you have the Endeavor, but I get down there frequently enough to get you some measurements...PM me the location and such, and I'll let you know next time I'm heading down that way...

[Catigale]

I would try a longer bolt on the forestay end. Under correct tension, the forestay isn't going to move much side to side and the thimble will take that wear by design

You will have to retension the forestay turnbuckle if you change the bolt of course.

[vizwhiz]

Here's a pic of it...does it look like I need to do anything to it?

[Sumner]

Here's a pic of it...does it look like I need to do anything to it?

I wouldn't worry about it myself. Check your tension after you've been out. It might 'self adjust' to a little straighter and maybe loosen the tension a tad. I wouldn't doubt if mine looked like that also.

Is the furler foil turning on the wire or that top fitting. I thought the fitting would be better, but CDI told me they would like it on the forestay wire itself. There again this might get to the nitpicking point.

Sent you a PM on the Endeavour, thanks,

Sum

Our Endeavour 37

Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida

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[vizwhiz]

Thanks Sum - it's actually on the wire just below the fitting. I would think the fitting would be a better choice also, but perhaps it is because under the tension of the sail pulling on it, it wouldn't spin as freely...that's the only reason I can think of not to have a larger bearing surface, and to not risk damaging the wire...but I didn't design it either...

[Tomfoolery]

Looks like the OEM hound on my . In fact, I recently bought another one to use for the asymmetric spinnaker (with the black halyard in the pic). I don't know if the original is lined up with the forestay, but it really doesn't matter as long as it stays where it is, which it does.

[Catigale]

That's such a small angle I would not do anything about it. Just make sure all the nuts up there are either nyloks or are doube bolted and locked

[vizwhiz]

Aye sir...all bolts nylocked...thanks!

[Judy B]

Here's a pic of it...does it look like I need to do anything to it?

Hi,

That's a very slight misalignment, and I wouldn't worry too much about a slight misalignment. After all, every time the sail gets powered up, the forestay will move out of "alignment" anyway. However, there is ONE very important part missing that you should have: a "toggle" attached between the top eye of the forestay and the tangs that make the hound. Otherwise, the wires of the forestay may break from constantly being bent slightly as you sail. That's the reason for 99% of broken wires on forestays.

Every furler manufacturer requires that you install a toggle at between the forestay and the hounds.

Here's what a toggle looks like:



It acts like a "universal joint" and prevents the lateral loads created by the sail from breaking the forestay wires. You don't need to add one at the bottom of the forestay, because there's one integrated into the drum assembly of the furler.

Fair winds,
Judy B

[vizwhiz]

Okay...that means I have to tighten up the turnbuckle further also...I have probably 1-1/2" of adjustment left until the bolt ends hit each other (just guessing from what I remember seeing inside the drum)... I'll see if there was a toggle left over that the PO's might have been using.
Thanks for the advice Judy!!

PS Just want to be sure you know that I don't have a rotating mast...

[Sumner]

...Thanks for the advice Judy!! PS Just want to be sure you know that I don't have a rotating mast...

No she is right and I should of seen that also in the picture . CDI wants one up there. If you can't adjust it out I'd just redrill the mast a couple inches higher and re-bolt the hounds there. You would still be close enough to the shrouds that I feel you would be ok.

I moved my forestay quite a bit further than that up the mast, so also made new shrouds and moved them up there also,

Sum

Our Endeavour 37

Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida

Our MacGregor S Pages

Mac-Venture Links

[Catigale]

Thread rehash warning...wasnt there some confusion about whether you needed an upper toggle with the CDI?

Also, does the toggle allow the lower mounting point to twist with respect the upper hole ? It doesnt look like it, and if it doesnt, I dont see how it changes the lateral forces on the stay- other than rotate the thimble by 90 degrees....maybe that is the key...

Ive been sailing 10 years without one on my CDI FF2 btw...

[Sumner]

...wasnt there some confusion about whether you needed an upper toggle with the CDI?

Also, does the toggle allow the lower mounting point to twist with respect the upper hole ? It doesnt look like it, and if it doesnt, I dont see how it changes the lateral forces on the stay- other than rotate the thimble by 90 degrees....maybe that is the key...

Ive been sailing 10 years without one on my CDI FF2 btw...

The manual....

http://www.sailcdi.com/sailpdf/FF2%20manual%204.04.pdf

....says to use one...

Headstay Fittings There must be a toggle at both ends of the
headstay. The turnbuckle must be a ¼” or
5/16” swage on turnbuckle with a T-bolt and
toggle on the bottom (see page 5). It MUST
be locked by cotter pins. You may NOT use
3-piece (Navtec) turnbuckles. The stud
must NOT have non-marine protuberances
(such as aircraft hex nuts). If your
turnbuckle doesn’t meet all of the above
requirements, replace it with one that does.

The toggle is like a U-joint and allows movement in either direction while the fitting at the top of the forestay only allows movement in one.

As you stated neglecting to use a toggle doesn't necessarily mean there will be a failure, but they are so cheap and easy to use why not?

Yes there was another thread on forestay failure where this was talked about and probably one before that and one before that and I'm sure there will be others to follow. Searching the archives on any of these boards is not easy. I've looked for items I've posted and knew the wording I pretty much used and still couldn't find them. Unless the bandwidth usage on the site is creating a money problem I don't see a problem with them getting talked about again and again. Maybe boring to some of us that have been on here, but probably a real benefit to new members that are now where we were knowledge wise 1 year, 2 years, 5 years or 10 years ago. When I see a thread going down one of those roads I just stop reading it. I guess I see a lot of threads on these boards that don't contribute in a technical way, but are more in the order of a bunch of guy/gals meeting in the morning for coffee and just passing the time. Nothing wrong with that if it doesn't cost the board too much more in web hosting fees. Just my opinion,

Sum

Our Endeavour 37

Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida

Our MacGregor S Pages

Mac-Venture Links