Buying a new main sail ? Muslehead ?

[bubba]

Were looking at new sails for our 07 26M because our 07 sails are really baggy after 230 days sailing. I have gotten 4 quotes ranging from almost $7,000.00 to almost $2,800.00 for a new 6oz dacron main w/full battens and 3 reefs and a 110% jib w/ window and UV fabric and a main sail lazy jack & zipper bag. Soooo many confusing things to learn, first thing I ran into was finding the correct 26 M dimensions for sail lofts other than MacGregor's Doyle (4oz) sails, so I called and talked to Mike at the MacGregor factory and he gave me the M's sail dimensions, I hope. All the sail lofts had found the dim. for the 26X and had to re bid with new dimensions including a 13 inch roach on the stock sail. I also found out that all sails are made in Indonisa, China, ect. even sails from Kelly Hanson Sails, UK Halsey and North Sails who charge the most. The lazy jack main sail bags all look and work 90% the same with sunbrella material and cost average from $650 to $1600 just different logos, I guess good patterns cost.

Does anyone sail the C3000 Musclehead main sail on there 26M and wants to comment please ?

[NiceAft]

First, do a search on the musclehead, and you will come up with a 164 responses.

The musclehead has much more sail area up top. This enables you to sail better in lower winds, but you will have to reef in winds which you never did with the Mac stock sail.

If you sail in areas where low breezes are the norm, you will love the sail. If you sail in the equivalent of San Francisco, you may not like the sail. In heavier winds, you may need your genoa to balance the boat. I have been almost turned around.

The other challenge with the musclehead is the upper sail stay. Without either removing it, or making another adjustment, you can not lower the sail enough to wrap a sail cover around it. Do a search and read.

I waited until last to type this line. I have the sail, and I like it. I find it a major pain when it comes to placing the sail cover on, but I put up with it. In modest and heavier winds, I feel my sailing abilities are being tested.

Ray

[bubba]

I did do a forum search and only 2 things came up, any links?


Were not wanting to over power our rigging and over heal the boat in over 15 mph breezes but to get better sailing at 2 to 15 mph breeze. We use our quick reefing system often to motor sail and the 3rd reef sail area holds us steady in rugh 5 to 6 ft wind swells at about 5 mph. I asked if the 3rd reef would only leave up 12 ft of sail up for a storm sail, very much like we have now on our Doyle 4oz sails.

[Hamin' X]

Check your spelling. Be sure it is spelled:

musclehead

I got 166 returns, you should get 167.

~Rich

[delevi]

Can't say anything about the musclehead, but can make three recommendations: Get a quote from Quantum. For around the same money, you can get a better sail. At least that was my experience. If you don't want to pay the big name loft prices and do go the KH route, check out thesailwarehouse.com You will need to special order a 3rd reef, but their prices are very good for heavier weight Dacron sails. Dacron is a tricky material to price since there are various grades, stitch & fill patterns, etc. Basically, you get what you pay for. Finally, you might consider a Dutchman flaking system in liu of the stack-pack/lazy jack system. The system will run approx $550 installed and you will pay an additional $600 or so for a custom sail cover. It is much less intrusive than lazy jacks and you aren't lugging your sail cover on the boom. On the other hand, if you go with Dacron sails, the stack-pack system may be better for reefing. I wouldn't do it with laminate sails since they need to be flaked and there is just too little room in teh lazy jack slot for a proper flake. I use laminates and Dutchman. If I had Dacron, I would go for the Stack-Pack. Good luck.

Leon

[bubba]

Sorry for the bad spelling of Musclehead I don't know how to edit it.

[Currie]

Sorry for the bad spelling of Musclehead I don't know how to edit it.

Hi Bubba - I think he meant when doing a search. My search for "musclehead" returns 12 pages of comments (168 total).

~Bob

[NiceAft]

Just type

musclehead

into the search window.

This is a subject which has been discussed. I don't know how many of us have the musclehead, but there are several. The overall response has been good, but with some irritations. Those being; getting used to reefing earlier (more sail area up high), and the top most stay interferes with placing a sail cover on. All of the solutions to these changes from what you are used to, require modification to the way you used to do things. Some may say arresting your standards (the stay problem). These are things which you should know before purchasing the sail. With all of that being said, I do enjoy the sail, and do not regret the purchase. I do prefer being better informed before making a purchase, so I am informing you because you obviously feel the same.

Ray

[Terry]

The headboard and top batten on the MuscleHead do have to be disconnected to get the sail down enough for a sail cover, but all I did was replace the top slug fitting with a small tiny D-ring clip to make undoing it faster and easier. It is just one more little task to do during setup and take down, not that big a deal.
I believe the KH sail is 5.4 oz dacron and 200 sq.ft with two reef points. I only have a single reef system on the first set of reef points, I figure if I have to go to the second set then I should not be out there and if I needed a third set I must be suicidal. For the cost the KH MuscleHead is the best bang for your buck but if you want more quality you will pay for it. I am reaching the point of asking myself just how much I want to spend on a economical price point boat in the first place, it's not like it is a Morris or Hinckly or something. It is just a low end boat that only requires low end accessories.

[NiceAft]

Well, there you go bubba Straight from the man's mouth himself. I was wondering how long before Art arose from the depths Maybe I should say, came down from the loft

Ray

[bubba]

Thanks for the great advice on the Musclehead sail. One question can I still use our topping lift ? or do we need to add a boom kicker ?

[delevi]

Buba,

You should be able to use the topping lift. My sail, though not as roachy as the musclehead is still quite a bit more roachy than the stock sail. The key is to lead the topping lift line aft so you can adjust it. When the main is almost all the way hoisted, slack the topping lift. The line will run alongside the mainsail. If you are not bothered with a topping lift, do look into the Dutchman flaking system before committing to the stackpack. The topping lift is an integral part of the Dutchman, and in my view its biggest drawback. Just a personal thing for me. If I didn't use the Dutchman, I would have a boom kicker and be rid of the topping lift.

My Take on the KH premium line:

First of all; Art, please don't get defensive. I have said many times that your product is top notch and I still believe that. However, you shouldn't get all worked up when constructive debate is offered and different products are compared.

I have the KH 150 genoa Mylar sail with Pentex grid. It is a great sail and a superb value. You can't touch it for the price by any major sailmaker. You can get a similar priced genny from sail warehouse but it will be dacron, so an inferior product for the same money. Points to KH. All that said, it would be unfair to compare this sail to the likes of Quantum. My mainsail and 105 jib are Quantum Fusion X cruise/race series. The sail material is significantly more robust than the KH. Furthermore, they are not panels but a full sheet of cloth with the only stitching at the reinforcement sections. The KH sail has several panels of cloth stitched together. For heavy air applications, the Quantums are simply better sails. Now for the big picture. They cost more than twice as much as the most expensive sails from KH (the pentex line.) I would venture to guess that the difference in performance would be difficult to distinguish on a Mac. Since the Quantums are more robust, however, it is probably fair to say that they would last longer than KH. The KH is mylar with pentex grid. The quantum is the same, though solid not stitched, BUT; there is light Dacron on both sides that sandwiches the Mylar & pentex. This protects the sail from the sun since Mylar fries easily. It also makes the sail hold up better in a blow. Now here is the Rub, and we go back to price. The Q sails are more than double the price. Do you get a sail that’s twice as good? No way! If I was buying sails today, I would buy everything from KH.
Hope this is useful,
Leon

[Terry]

Thanks for the great advice on the Musclehead sail. One question can I still use our topping lift ? or do we need to add a boom kicker ?

I still use my topping lift, same as I would with the oem mainsail. Nice to hear it is 6 oz Dacron, better than the 5.4 I thought it was. I am sure it will outlast two of the oem mainsails. With my genoa and Musclehead I am flying just over 400 sq. ft. of sail which is nice to have in light winds we get up here in the PNW during July & August (although we also get our fair share of high winds in that time). Actually, 400 sq. ft of sail is a lot for a Mac 26!

[bubba]

I have not looked at Quantum sails yet, but I will.
When I talked to KH sails and they asked how many days a year do we sail and they gasp at the 130 days we have averaged for the last 2.5 years, they said most folks only sail 30 or so days a year that is why they can have a 3 year warnity I guess ? 520 days sailing verses 90 days in 3 years, KH's sail cloth must be as good as the best to have a 3 year warnity?? You could sail around the world in less than 3 years and still have a warnity from KH.
I just talked to North sails which says there sails are made for world circumnavication and have better UV resistance especially in what they call there Nordac Radian 5.6 oz cloth that's lighter than there 6 oz cloth and is cross laminated and holds it's shape better, but better than what???
I did just contact Carol Hasse at Port Townsend Sails, Hasse & Co. which hand makes there sails in house in Port Townsend WA, WOW really a USA made sail. There the Co. that made the sails for the boat that is doing the circumnavication of the Americas clockwise, thru the North west passage and then around the horn, they will be back to Seattle in May they said. I figure there worth a quote too.

[delevi]

Sounds like you are leaning toward Dacron sails. If so, keep in mind that there is much more to Dacron than the weight. You may find this info useful: http://www.quantumsails.com/get_file.as ... 7039308a01
It is from Quantum's web site. On laminates, Norlam is not as good as Fusion X. The difference is the Q sails have a pentex grid in the mylar-dacron while the North sails are just mylar with dacron. When I was shopping the price was about the same. North's version would be 3DL, but it is very expensive and only made for 40' luffs or longer. Considering the amount of sailing you do, you will probably be well served with good quality Dacron. If you go the higher performance route, you probably want the Dacron shell vs. bare mylar which won't last too long with your use. Quantum's site also has some good comparisons of various laminates as they compare to one another and to dacron. Of course, how the numbers translate to actual performance and longevity on our Macs is beyond me.

Well off to the races in a few hours. Guess I'll catch a quick nap. Going out on a Catalina 42, flying Spectra sails by Quantum.

Leon