High wind!

[Snyds]

a few days ago I went out to the lake in 25-30 mph wind with up to 40+ mph gusts (this is info from another sailer with a weather station on board)...

Ok so I sail a lot in moderate winds and am doing fine (I grew up sailing a few times a summer in Rhode Island and have had my x for a year so I have minimal experience in comparison) but I was having issues in the heavy winds. First off, with just a reefed main and the wind pushing hard I was having issues sailing into the wind, is this normal? Sailing into the wind the boat would insist on pointing straight into the wind!? Do I need a storm Jib to point (I am not blessed with a roller furler)

After that I ended up anchoring in mud/clay and it stuck good! I went down below and ended up catching some sleep. I woke up to water spay through the hatch went up to see that the wind was howling and waves were breaking over the front of the boat... It's a lake, so not real waves like you see but actual waves! I decided enough was enough, time to call it a day... Went to retrieve my anchor and it wouldn't budge! Found out I went around it and it was tied around the center board, this was making the boat list hard, I considered cutting it but didn't... got that untied by driving around it. Now I'm standing on the bow wind hard pulling the bow down and waves are breaking over my feet, I could pull with everything I had, the boat would creep forward then it would pull me back harder than I was pulling (I could hear the motor coming in and out of the water) That's when I made a big mistake! I decided to rotate around on it and try to pull it backwards, got around 180 degrees on it first wake broke over the motor and right into the cabin, about 3-4 landed before I could get back. SO I cut the line on the anchor and left it on the bottom. (it's a 20 lb danforth with a 10 ft rode and I had about 60 ft out in 14 ft water)

So at what point do you cut it, or do you? Is there something else I could have done to retrieve it? Should I have tied something that floats to it and go back for it next time? Should I have not even gone out there in the first place? Is a 20 lb too much anchor for this boat? OK thats all for now, all I could think about were the football guys this spring...


Thanks as always and regardless I had a blast out there!
Steve

[Kelly Hanson East]

You can tie a fender to it and come back on a nice day to retrieve. Maybe even write your name on it in case someone retrieves it for you.

Once you are cold, tired, wet, and angry - boating goes downhill fast imho. You did the right thing to cut it off and leave it behind in these conditions.

One thing that might have worked - bring the rode back to the winch and see if you can winch the boat forward.

When my anchor gets really stuck in mud, I pull it up the chain rode, pull up as much slack as I can, cleat the chain off on the front cleat, then bounce up/down on the stern to rock the anchor out of the mud.

[pokerrick1]

What KHE said

Rick Less in Las Vegas

[Wind Chime]

Yikes. You saved the boat, but lost the anchor, all in a good days sail

I hate loosing gear overboard. I Probably would have tied the rode to a fender before casting it off, and come back another day to retrieve it under better conditions.

There may be a few other things to try to retrieve the mud stuck anchor.

When the anchor is stuck:

1. pull from right above the anchor. Position the boat above the anchor without fouling your line in the prop.
2. pull from different side angles with shortend rode, to try to get the anchor to roll over.

If it still will not come out, slide it out backwards from the opposite direction (shank facing away from you):

1. use a "Slip-Ring". You can buy these premade or make one yourself. This is just a ring that is attached to a separate line, you slip the ring around the original anchor rode, and let the ring slip down around the anchor. Then maneuver the boat to the opposite side of the anchor and pull the anchor slip-ring line from the opposite direction. You can even use a short piece of chain for this to make a ring.
2. If you anticipate there may be problems retrieving the anchor before you drop anchor, you can install a "Trip-Line" before you drop the anchor. This is a separate line that is attached to the crown of the anchor, the bitter end is tied to either a float, or run along with the anchor rode to the deck. If the anchor gets stuck you maneuver the boat to the opposite side of the anchor and pull on the trip-line, which will pull the anchor out backwards similar to the Slip-Line.

Darry.

[Rob S]

Looks like your anchoring question has been well covered.

Ok so I sail a lot in moderate winds and am doing fine (I grew up sailing a few times a summer in Rhode Island and have had my x for a year so I have minimal experience in comparison) but I was having issues in the heavy winds. First off, with just a reefed main and the wind pushing hard I was having issues sailing into the wind, is this normal? Sailing into the wind the boat would insist on pointing straight into the wind!? Do I need a storm Jib to point (I am not blessed with a roller furler)

Even with a reefed main but no foresail, I would say upwind in those winds, yes it is normal, the boat will constantly want to round up. The main will be trying to yaw the boat into wind and with no jib to oppose this you're relying on the scrawny rudders to hold her straight, and with the boat heeling over, one of those rudders will be most of the way out of the water, the second will stall easily, and hey-presto, you've rounded up!

When a gust hits, I try to limit myself to a half turn of the wheel and sheeting out on the main. If I get to a full turn of the wheel my rudders are on the verge of stalling, if they haven't already.

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

I doubt you will ever be successful trying to sail upwind under main alone. You really need the headsail, it is what does most of the work going up wind. Without it you will never get the correct balance to sail into the wind, particularly a strong wind. Under main alone there is just to much force behind the center of effort and the boat will always round up.

A 20lb anchor is not to big for a Mac, you can never go wrong with a bigger anchor. I doubt your retrieval problems had anything to do with the weight of the anchor.

In high wind and sea conditions you need to use the motor to help you bring in the rode. Have the helms person slowly drive toward the anchor relieving the load on the rode while you retrieve it. Once directly over the anchor normally it will just pull out of the bottom as they are made to grip securely in the horizontal plane, not the vertical plane. If it doesn't release, you can cleat off the vertical rode and then power slowly over the anchor to use the boat to pull it out. If this doesn't work, you are clearly hung up on something on the bottom such as a log or rock. Once an anchor get snagged on an object no amount of pulling is going to free it. You'll need to dive on the anchor and get it loose by hand. Attaching something like a float is always a good idea as finding a submerged object can be tough even though you are sure you know where it is. Be careful to cut the rode off long enough so the float is only holding up the line and the chain is all sitting on the bottom. Otherwise you may watch the float sink below the surface as well when you release it.

If your lake has a lot of debris on the bottom as many do, particularly man made ones like reservoirs, you may want to add a second removal line to the anchor. Most anchors have a hole in the area where the shank meets the flukes for attaching a line that will let you pull it out backwards when it gets stuck under something.

[Russ]

It's easy to come up with better ideas when we are out of the howling wind, dry and in front of our computers typing.

You answered your own question about tying something to it that floats for later retrieval. KHE's idea of writing your name and number on a fender is a great one. (Gotta remember that if ever in the same situation).

20 lb Danforth seems big to me. I have a 14lb that seems adequate and easy to handle. They are pricey to replace.

Do you know where you lost it? If so, I'd go back with a grapple hook and try and find it. I actually had to let loose the bitter end when a wall of rafted powerboats were dragging and about to crash into our boat in a T-storm. I retrieved the anchor this way the next day. I've lost things over and marked it with a GPS waypoint hoping one day when the lake levels are 10' lower I might be able to retrieve it.

Anchor retrieval:

First of all, those ball players in Florida capsized their boat by trying to yank it out with brute force with the motor in reverse. Your 180 trick might have worked as long as you didn't try brute force reverse thrust which could pull the transom under. Swinging the flukes 180 can pull the anchor out or if it's in mud, just twist it in the mud the other direction.

The slope of the rode is what keeps the anchor digging in rather than pulling out.

You need to ride up on top of the anchor to as nearly 90 degrees as possible. If you are single handed, it's gonna be harder, then you need to be clever (which is hard in crazy winds and waves). Bring the rode back to the cockpit somehow. This is gonna be hard if the wind tugging on the line. Perhaps take the rode behind section that is cleated back to the winch and cleat it off at the stern, then uncleat it from the bow so the stern cleat is holding the weight. Then drive the boat forward with the engine and take up the slack as you go. Hopefully, once the boat is over top of the anchor it will pull out. If not, drive over it, but make sure the line is as close to 90 degrees as possible or you might tangle the prop. Pulling the flukes 180 degrees will pull it out and it wont be able to reset with such a short angle.

All this sounds easy from my desk, but when waves are bouncing over your feet and the wind is howling so you can't hear yourself think, tying a float to the end might be easier. When people hear you sail on a lake they think, oh, that must be pretty calm. Deep water lakes can whip up some nasty waves.

--Russ

[ronacarme]

Our X balances main or reefed main with the CB line let out only about 3/8 of its length, to sail closehauled.

The reefed main area is small enuf, compared to hull and rigging area, that adding our small 25 sq ft storm jib aids close hauled and close reach sailing, without much more heeling. For balance, we let out the CB line to about 3/4 or so.

On the X, adjustment of the CB line (do-able head to wind or downwind) is as important as that of rudders and sheets.

Ron

[Hamin' X]

I would think that by raising the CB when close hauled would only increase your leeway and reduce heeling. This would be masking the fact that your VMG to your target, is much reduced. Much better to balance the boat with sails, IMHO.

~Rich

[Phil M]

Strong winds are a problem for my 26M, even with a small furled sail and a reefed main. I found the trick to NOT try to sail close hauled, but a reach only - not even a close reach - and I can maintain a speed of around 3 knots. When I sail too close to the wind, as in close-hauled, the 26m almost stops in its tracks.
I agree that sailing only with a reefed main works poorly going into the wind.

Phil

[Gerry the fish]

Not an answer to original predicament but I noticed sail shape is really important sailing up wind in heavy air.

I was out in about 20 - 25knots with a reef in the main only and was barely making 1 - 2 knots up wind. I thought something was wrong - I didnt have the reefed clew pulled all the way down to the boom and the sail was quite baggy - once I fixed it it made a big diference.

[The Mutt]

An old salt once told me never to leave a trailer boats daggerboard out when at anchor, before reading this thread I thought it was feces, there might be something in his advice after all.

Glenn

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

The higher the wind the flatter you want your sails. On an X you can adjust this by adding tension to the backstay bending the mast. This matches the mast shape to the curve sewn in luff of the sail so the sail gets flatter removing draft. Without a backstay on an M, all you can do is take up any fullness with the outhaul and the mainsheet. More vang can help to. If you sail a lot in higher winds you might want to get a set of sails sewn with less draft to begin with. The factory Mac sails are pretty baggy to begin with and after a few years get even worse.

On an X when you raise the centerboard you are actually moving the center of effort aft as the board rises. While leeway will certainly increase the higher you lift it, you will also get better balance if you are flying a small headsail or no headsail. There is no way to adjust this on an M.

In high winds there is a tendency to oversheet, just bring the sails in enough to get the boat moving and stop any luffing. In all cases these boats will sail to weather faster if you reduce sail and keep them on their feet. Excessive heel angles will only slow you down, reef early and often.

[J.Teixeira]

Just adding something to Duane Fine advises.

The use of a cunningham on a M (supported in the mast) can be a way to control the sail shape and replace (part) of the adjustable backstay work.

A cunningham is a type of downhaul used to change the shape of a sail.

The cunningham differs from a typical downhaul in the way that it attaches to the sail. The system usually consists of a line which is secured at one end to the mast or boom below the foot of the mainsail. It is then passed through a cringle in the luff of the sail near the foot, but above the tack, and then led down on the other side to a fitting on the mast or boom or on deck.

The tension in the luff of the sail is adjusted using a combination of the halyard and the cunningham (where fitted). The primary advantage of adjusting the cunningham is the speed and ease with which the luff tension can be changed while sailing or racing. By hauling or easing the line, the tension in the luff can be changed, thereby shifting the point of maximum draft of the sail forward or aft, optimizing sail shape—and therefore—performance.



I have one in mi X and it works fine... (red "extra boom vang" on the mast below the main sail)

Best regards

Jose

http://arianeoveleiro.blogspot.com

[Wind Chime]

If you do not have a cunningham installed such as Jose has, but have a Jiffy-Reefing line installed, you can use that to act as a 2:1 cunningham.

The jiffy reefing line goes up along the mast and through the first forward cringle, then back down the sail along the mast and then out along the boom. You can sheet in (and make fast) the jiffy line at the end of the boom, before it goes through the block and up to the aft cringle.

Of course you lose this option once you reef.

Darry