Project M - Doubling the Size of the Cockpit

[Currie]

Hello all,

Now that it's finally sailing season - it's also time to plan this winter's mods . I really do enjoy mods in the wintertime. It's not at all that I'm not happy with the M, but rather it gives me a way to enjoy the boat year-round. This mod's a doozy. I've been thinking about it since I bought the boat, but didn't come up with the resolution until last week.

I'm not really adding on to the cockpit, hehe - but something that has always bothered me is the pedestel. It occupies about half the cockpit. A while back I thought about someday ripping it out and adding something like lever-steering at the helm seat - like an air-boat may have. I have a bunch of drawings, but they are ridiculous. I dropped the idea when I noticed that guests on-board love to steer with the pedestel. It gives that big-boat feel when sailing, and is pretty much a must when powering. So that was that. But I do so hate the feng shui if there are more than three aboard (including myself). FWIW - I consider five full capacity.

It occurred to me this week that when powering, it's helm seat 100% of the time, and when sailing, it's about 50/50 (at the helm seat, or off to the side in moderate to brisk winds). When not moving at all, I'd like to take the pedestel and throw it in the water.

So what if the pedestel moved?.....

Here's a pic of a sailor (presumably Mike Inmon, FWIW), sitting to the side. If the pedestel articulated and swiveled back, so that the wheel was over the helm seat, he'd still be doing the exact same thing. Just mentally move him astern by about 15".



I drew in the two positions of the pedestel and wheel in the scanned diagram. Notice the position of the original. Even in the forward position, it takes up much less space. The helm mount is only about 8"H x 8"D x 6"W (when facing the front of the wheel). It has no controls on it (throttle, guages, etc.) - more on that below. When the pedestel is in the rear position, the cockpit is almost huge!

OK, so here's what I'd need to do. This all needs to be machined from stainless steel and brass. I have two local machine shops, that I work with, that I'm going to visit sometime before winter. Here's the locking mechanism, I'm on about version 17 ...



The pedestel articulates 15º from vertical in both directions. It locks down at both extremes with a handle that is on the side of the column (the same 3" stainless tube used on my Mac today). The lever-lock mechanism uses typical rotary locking with the user's handle jamming a "jack" into one of two postions. It has plenty of leverage both at the top near the handle and down at the jack (the actual handle isn't shown). Also, the open bottom is actually protected with some flexible HDPE sheet as well as a rubber boot. Just so toes don't get crushed.

I know it may look like a couple of little sticks are holding up the pedestel (as well as me - if I should fall against it in rough seas), but everything at the bottom is milled from ~5/8" brass - kinda like this....



...only that's not really it either - that's a rough sketch. Needless to say, it will have to be milled from heavy stock with very tight tolerances. The top of the unit also pivots so the wheel stays plumb. I thought about using a pivoting helm, but I want to be able to install an auto-pilot someday - so the wheel needs to be fixed. Due to room constraints, the helm of choice is a hydraulic Teleflex/BayStar - with an inboard cylinder.

http://www.teleflexmarine.com/cgi-bin/p ... oduct=1167

About the controls. I have no sketches yet, but I had planned this out last year: The guages and switches get mounted on a new panel on the left side of the helm seat - kind of as though it were an arm rest - but with all the goodies mounted on it. The cables are bound and the seat is still allowed to be opened without everything getting in the way. The throttle is mounted on the right side of the helm seat. But not mounted *to* the seat. It's mounted to the splashwell wall. The helm seat is cut-away to allow the throttle to come up through, and the cutaway is re-inforced with stainless steel or aluminum from underneath. I'll posted a sketch as soon as I can if anyone is interested.

So that's about it. It's no sure thing - totally planning stage - but when I post it here first, it's kind of like making some kind of commitment . So I'm playing mental games with myself. That, plus - I need feedback. Cool? Stupid? Impossible? If so, I need details on issues. Especially since I might visit the metal shops next week with some plans. I'm sure I'll get an earful there too.

For now, back to sailing.

Cheers!

~Bob

[Clemo]

Just a first response. I'm at work where I am not able to look at pictures.

Currie, I have been thinking along similar lines. No fore-aft movement but definitely side to side.

I have an X so I have to start with an M type, post mounted pedestal. Then, a simple hinge at floor level, locked by a three position arc. No pictures, but think of a simple set up like you might find on an old piece of agricultural machinery.

This does two things. Firstly, when boarding through the transom the wheel can be tilted out of the way. And, secondly, when sailing, the wheel can be tilted toward the high side, where I tend to sit.

Neither gain is terribly great, but the mod looks so simple that the slight gains may still be worthwhile.

There is a further attraction too in the post type pedestal appearing to give more floor space in the cockpit.

(& I lust after a keelboat with twin helm stations.)

Tks,
C ya,
Clemo.

[Graham Carr]

I like your idea, it’s very interesting! Looks like you have given this some serious thought.
Have you considered building a full scale mockup out of cheaper materials to see how it would function (pivot only) before committing to the machine shop?
I see that the steering system you have chosen is designed for a low torque application for use on inland waterways. Due to the investment in time and money, would it be better to go with a higher torque rating? With the hydraulic steering, would you have some kind of a flex connection at the base?

Graham

[Trouts Dream]

First since I have an X with the lift up table that we use a lot this isn't really an option for me.
That being said I would keep this as simple as possible. What about providing a very simple base plate with 2 or three pin points. I'm thinking of a couple of half circles mounted on the cockpit sole on either side of the M pedastal base. The pedastal base would be cut free from the floor and a hinge attached between base and the aft edge so the pedastal is free to swing all the way back (to the engine if the seat is raised) the half circles on each side would have holes lined up and a single pin would lock it in position (much like raising the mast)

With enough slack in all the cable, the pedastal would all but disapear from the cockpit while at anchor or moored.

Major draw back is the need to wear steel toed boots. Lots of extra toe stubbing stuff.

[pokerrick1]

Huh

Rick

[Currie]

Thanks for the posts guys....

Clemo - sounds very interesting - I'd love to see some sketches if you get a chence.

Graham - Yeah, I forgot to mention that. I've already started putzing around with a harwood prototype. It'll probably be a month or two, but I'll post a video when it's done. Also, I guess I need to look into the BayStar thing. It says "Up to 150HP". I thought that would be adequate. Can you tell me more about it? I'll have to have a talk with Teleflex.

Trout - I hear ya about simplicity. I thought about pins as well. I'm a little hesitant to use them because of the tolerances. I'm trying to avoid even the tinyest gaps in the working parts. I'd like the pedestel to feel as solid as it does now (or more-so ). I kinda got inspired when my brother milled the brass parts to make my cabin ladder swivel (posted in the mod's section). Everything was milled to about 1/10000th tolerance. The two pieces of the hinge slid together like they were made for NASA. I kept putting them together, taking them apart, etc. I thought - milling metal is so cool. So I've got the bug. Someday, (retirement), I'd like to have a TIG/MIG welding setup, a cutter and a small milling machine. But it probably doesn't make too much sense. There's a lot of them in my area. Maybe I'll just make some friends instead .

~Bob

[Currie]

FWIW - Here's an animation....

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u200 ... destel.gif

I made it a link to an url because it can take a second or two to load.

[RocketsCrew]

This is a very cool idea, but after looking at the animation (very cool as well) I kind of wonder how you would seal it at the cockpit floor? I'm sure you have put some thought into this?

[Currie]

Hi RocketsCrew,

I think some sort of bellows-boot (with HDPE underneath as mentioned above)...there are a bunch of companies that produce them in different sizes and shapes...

Ex:

http://www.directindustry.com/prod/barb ... 69270.html

BTW - I forgot to mention, the rocker-arm that runs along the column and pivots the head, is hidden inside a stainless steel channel/cover. The cover is welded to the column itself.

[robbarnes1965]

The whole idea is great. If you implement it please keep us current. The admiral and little first mate are annoyed at me asking them to get out of the way all the time.

[K9Kampers]

This is a great idea...looking forward to hearing about the fab & buildup! This kind of out-of-the-box idea is like what I suggested in another thread on new Mac ideas...a swing-away helm (to the side), to open up the cockpit when steering isn't needed. Nothing I'm going to pursue, but it's fun to dream & work out the mechanical details. Hope this one works out for you!

[Graham Carr]

Bob
I do not really know anything about this steering system, I just noticed the statement on page one from the link you posted. That was for the “Baystar” system. I did check out their other product, Seastar http://ww2.seastarsteering.com/OUTBOARD/oboard.htm. This system comes with a front mount ram and it is rated for 350HP Max. Here is some of the other info I found about the baystar. BayStar is a smaller version of the SeaStar and will feel slightly heavier to steer. BayStar is rated to 150HP MAX (transom rating). Pontoon boats and Bass boats will likely be harder to turn when using BayStar, as this is taking the BayStar system to its maximum. They recommend calling custom service to discuss the torque requirements.

Graham

[Currie]

Graham,

Actually it's the outboard version that says it's rated to 150HP, not the inboard. You might be right, I may need to choose a beefier (and more expensive ) system. I'll call Teleflex. Thanks!

~Bob

[Currie]

Well I'm committed (or should be ). I decided to use a cable system instead. Hydraulics just take this way over budget, and there's really no reason the same thing can't be done with the Teleflex Safe-T QC cable steering system. It just makes the helm box a little taller - so I ordered one.



I'm going to start making the prototype this weekend. Will keep you posted.

~Bob

[aya16]

The rack steering system now on the boat extends down the stainless tube, so the floating head might not work.
The hydraulic steering Im looking at is around a thousand dollars and would not extend into the stainless tube (only the hoses) There are some steering no feed back tilt wheels that might work, but again the steering cable is really substantial and wont bend much if at all. To me the only way to do this would be hydraulic steering.

By installing this system(http://ww2.seastarsteering.com/OUTBOARD/oboard.htm) it can be installed below decks and just replace the mechanical steering cable, this still gives the option of disconnecting the engine as you sail, the same way we always could. (we still use all the stainless stock steering tubes below)

the stainless pipe on the M is pretty packed with wires and steering, as well as shifting cables, using the newer fiberglass console might be easier to adapt to your plan, as it has lots more room inside for things to flex as well as adding the rods and plates you need to do what you want. I converted my 2004 stainless control head to the new fiberglass console, It was done by cutting the stainless tube 4 inches above the deck and using wonder board to mount over the stock flange instead of taking it out.

another problem would be the shifter, it looks like the swivel plate you have is going to hit the shifter, as that extends down the control head about 7-8 inches. All of this can be over come, and would be interested in the finished project.

That link did not go to the right place, the part number is Part # HC5370 its the side mount system. The bay star I think would not work well for you. Part # HC5370 would not be installed in the motor well, it would be installed in place of the mechanical steering cable below, it would bolt right up.
Mike