It's Time for bigger rudders!

[beene]

Got a chance to go sailing today without the kids, ie push the limits a bit. So I headed out single handed, everyone else was busy. Weather was questionable, dark clouds, very windy, cold front approaching. I checked wx radar before heading out and saw a narrow line of CB’s headed my way, figured it would be brief, so what the heck, hardly get a chance to do any real sailing with the kids onboard most of the time. Once I got the boat out of the marina and onto the open water, it started to rain hard, it was light drizzle, so I went into the cabin, closed her up, and watched through the window how other sail/pontoon/bowrider boats coped with the downpour.

Once the rain stopped, about 10 min, I exited the cockpit, hoisted the sails and started having fun. Winds was 20kts gusting to 27. I was just playing around so I set up a beam, then a beat, back to a beam…. Etc. The sustained wind picked up so I went broad reach. Was getting 7mph, and had that nice wake noise I love to hear coming from behind the boat when she’s really moving. Held that config for 30 min. Then I got knocked down, big time, I mean there I was, standing in the cockpit left foot on the lip of the right seat, right foot on the inside at the top of the cockpit wall, waiting for the gust to subside. It did not. That was the NEW wind, get used to it tough guy. FINE! So, while the boat sat 90 deg to the hammering wind, holding 60-70 deg heel, I just calmly furled in the genny, dropped the main and reefed it, which was fun as the waves made for quite a ride on top of the cabin, and set up to start the motor and get back into irons to hoist the main again. Never once did I feel unsafe. The M took it all in stride. The ballast was doing its job keeping the boat from rolling over.

OK, so now I was set up, tacking, reefed main, 30-40% genny. Felt great! Hitting 6mph. The wind picked up some more. Now things were getting frustrating. I could not stop the boat from rounding up. I could feel her starting to, in a gust, I would fight it, trying not to over steer, just could not stop it. The boat just kept stopping. She would heel up to 50-60deg, round up, I would be forced to apply full opposite rudder, and there we sat. It was a battle of wills, and neither of us was gonna give in. So we’d stop. Sit there in that heavy wind, pointed right into it, waves crashing by, not moving. Then she would slowly come back, I would be forced to follow her with the rudders, pick up speed and head back up, til the next gust and do it all over again. I had enough of that so I killed the sails, fired up the Merc and headed for home.

Once back at the marina, the winds were still heavy and I had to get in as I hadto go to work soon, otherwise I might have just anchored out there and waited it out. But then again, I am too stubborn for that anyways. So, I brought her in…. well you know where this is going… in the marina I turned to squeeze into my slip, going fast to keep from drifting, just then a big gust came up, I cut in hard, had to hit rvrs to stop from cutting a hole in my nice neighbors Caver, my boat started to crab onto the edge of the dock. I through it in neutral, at least I was sure I did….., ran up front, tried to get off as gracefully as possible, slipped on the nice smooth black stripe at the front of all of our Macs, took the lifeline right in the groin, which was preferable to going overboard, got off the boat, tried to regain my composure, not likely, and pull the boat into the slip. Well, the dam thing was still in reverse and pulling my off the dock as it headed for another nice 36’ Doral. Are we having fun yet? I quickly jumped back onboard, you should have seen that feat from the low dock up and over the towering bow pulpit, ran to the cockpit and regained control. At that moment, the wind died, like calm out of nowhere. I slowly put Pegasus to rest in her slip, tied her up, and stood there looking to see if anyone took any damage. The whole time I was there after that, closing her up for the day, next to nil wind, it’s like it was never there.

Hope you enjoyed the story.

Cheers

G

[Frank C]

. . . Winds was 20kts gusting to 27. I was just playing around so I set up a beam, then a beat, back to a beam…. Etc.

The wind picked up some more. Now things were getting frustrating. ... She would heel up to 50-60deg, round up, I would be forced to apply full opposite rudder, and there we sat. ...

Geoff,
Sorry to hear we're both having troubles, but in my case, they were totally my fault. Your case was different. WADR, I'm not sure rudders were your problem, as much as the winds and your heeling angle.

If I've understood correctly, every boat, regardless of rudder style, must round-up when she heels past some certain threshold. I'm pretty sure that 55 degrees is well past.

At 50 degrees the rudder has begun approaching horizontal, with ever diminishing control over the bow. Additionally, every wave under your bow is now lifting the bow, and destroying the rudder's flow. Simply by virtue of hull shape, as a wave pushes up on the bow, it also pushes the bow upwind.

Rather than bigger rudders, you may need a deeper reef.

[Moe]

What Frank said. At 50-60 heel degrees the single rudder remaining in the water is becoming an elevator and has more influence on lifting or lowering the stern than it does yawing the boat.

If I followed your narrative correctly, after the first knockdown you were sailing reefed main only and yet this happened?

[Dimitri-2000X-Tampa]

In addition to what Frank says, the balance of the sails is important, at least on my X boat. Perhaps its a little bit different on an M. But if you don't have enough headsail out in a heavy wind, the boat won't do much of anything (except stay in irons). To make things worse, furling in a genny part ways is not real effective in high winds either so you kind of get caught in a catch 22 since its not easy to change a headsail out in wavy conditions and there is too much wind to have the whole sail out.

A reefed Genny (partially furled) has a couple problems. First, the belly of the sail is too deep so you can't get on to the wind (higher than a beam reach) worth a squat. And secondly (important in your case), the center of effort (the point through which the sum of the driving forces appear to act) is raised up considerably higher. This means that the heeling force is amplified by the extra leverage of the height. And we all know that too much heal is not good. This is where the stock jib is a heck of a lot better than the stock Genoa.

One tactic I've used in heavy winds is powersailing. Yes, the purists will give you crap about it. But when I've been caught in heavy winds before with the family on board, I do what it takes to stabilize the boat as much as possible. Basically, a little bit of engine power acts like a very strong rudder and adds further control. In fact, I think this position is more stable than motoring with bare poles where the boat rolls considerably more. My stock X mainsail has a very deep reef so with that in and the stock jib, I can do fairly well up to about 30-35 mph winds (without needing the engine). Above that, most all regular sailboats can not sail very well, its virtually impossible to go upwind at all above this. Above 40 and you may as well just put in a sea anchor to keep your bow into the waves and drift down wind until you can get to a safe harbor. Somebody here once reported being able to sail a 26x in 50-60 mph winds, which I consider to be a fish story. Believe me, when you are out in 30-35 mph winds, in can feel like it is 50mph..lol Doing anything on the boat is painful (getting wacked in the face with the clew of the sail, etc) and a big test of physical endurance.

[Moe]

To add to what Dimitri wrote, with a roller-furled sail, you'll already starting with a higher center of effort with the foot higher to clear the drum. Then as you furl, the CE goes even a little higher. I tie the tack of our foresail as low and close to the clevis on the furler drum as possible while still getting good wrap.

Our sailmaker (Ullman, Ventura) kept the foot of our new C-18 genoa as low as possible, aka decksweeper, which helps, but our lifelines attach to the top of the pulpit (like an M?) and I'm going to have to shorten them to attach them at the bottom of the pulpit like on the X, to clear when fully unfurled.

Two other things we did, were 1) stick to a 135 for a "one-sail-fits-all" on the FF2 and 2) have a foam luff pad installed when the sail was built. We can furl down to the size of an 80% jib and the sail remains flat as can be. At that size, the foot is just above the factory lifeline location, which keeps waves coming over the bow from hitting the sail, just as you'd have the foot of a storm jib a little higher for this reason. This isn't a high-performance sail, just a cross-cut Dacron cruising model.

The outboard down, not even running, has to add to rudder authority. We sailed off one morning in lighter winds with the X, with the rudders still up but the motor down, and I didn't notice it until I tilted the motor up. Of course at 50-60º, not much of the outboard foot would be in the water.

[They Theirs]

Furling the Genoa, and reefing the main in 20+ knots of wind single handed, needs quick action. One of the problems encountered when roller reefing a sail is that the moment the first turn is taken to reduce sail area, the airfoil shape of the sail is ruined. The factory Jib and Genoa are very generic sails, never meant for any thing more than light to medium air. Same sail is manufactured as a hanked on sail, fit with a #6 luff tape for compromised furling sail with the marginal CDI furler. The CDI system does not have a usable halyard tension, as a hanked on sail, uses the boats jib halyard. Roller/reefing systems suffer from unavoidable headstay sag heeled over, and compounds as the wind picks up. The very inexpensive, generic factory sails are easily stretched out (blown out full) in heavy air, and roller/reefing compounds the deep draft by creating even deeper draft with the furling units weight aloft, creating unavoidable headstay sag. The Jib should have been up in the heavy air, (Many want to make the Genoa play the game of “One Sail Does All” roller reefing into a very poor, deep draft shape.) A proper furling system allows the jib halyard to tension the luff using the boat jib halyard, pulling some of the draft out and the center of effort forward by tensioning the luff of the foresail. The Genoa is only a light air sail on the Mac, and because of the wide sheeting angle around the shrouds with chainplates set on the beam. (Can’t sail close on the wind)

The Jib would be a better choice sailing in a breeze. To overcome some of the unavoidable deep draft, you’ll need to purchase some expensive, custom made loft sails, cut flat to better keep the tender heeling of the Mac on its feet. The custom loft sail will need a well placed foam luff pad to help pull in the belly of the roller/reefed headsail, combined with luff tension from the boats jib halyard, and the adjustable lead sheet blocks to better power up, or down the sail by opening or closing the leach. The headsail can suffer from reefing, especially in a blow. As the sail is furled (rolled up) a new tack is formed, higher on the rolled sail, and the reef point of the new tack or head is not reinforced, stressing the sail at these points, (Quality sails will be reinforced at the reef points) as the clew is tensioned with the jib sheets.

Custom Loft sails, cut flat, will do wonders in keeping a tender boat on its feet, and a good traveler could certainly benefit controlling the mainsail angle of attack. You’ll probably find larger rudders unnecessary. Larger rudders can benefit holding coarse in heavy air, but slow the boat in light air. (Mac’s are not known to be light air screamers) The increased drag, from larger profile rudders can stress the boats steering hardware and mounting bolts, as noted by Delevi rudder testing, on the Frisco Big Air.


Cruising Sails article
By Shore Sails

FURLING GENOAS
Again the best premium dacron to control sail shape and extend life is used, most cruising rigs work best with flat sail shapes that stay flat when furled. For extra performance or for IRC racing (furling rating allowance) genoas, mylar film based sail fabrics are recommended these sails can be fitted with roller battens if required.
The last 10 years has seen a steady decrease in genoa overlap at the mast, this has the benefits of much easier tacking and winching in together with better forward visibility, you also have a better sail shape in heavier winds as you furl down, the large long footed sails are quicker reaching and in light airs.

[Moe]

One of the problems using the working jib on our X was that the jib tracks seemed too far inboard along the companionway rails, and pulled the jib clew in too far for good shape.

A previous member here, Dik (ESPERANZA), noticed pictures of the original 26X showed the jib car tracks outboard on the cabin top and so relocated his. He reported much improved sail shape when using the jib.

The one-sail-fits-all roller furled concept probably works better, not only with a 135 with a foam luff pad, but also on a boat where the chain plates, and thus the shrouds, are inboard of the side decks next to the cabin top. This allows the sail to be trimmed in closer when partially furled, even using the genoa tracks/cars and winches.

The purist in me agrees with TT that hanked on sails are more than just theoretically better than the one-sail-fits-all roller furled solution. And yes, the Flexible Furler doesn't allow for as much luff tension as other furling setups, and may be as bad as it gets. Secretly, I'd hoped to go back to not only a keel and tiller, but hanked on sails with a downhaul as well.

The Admiral, OTOH, was thrilled the C-18 came with the same Flexible Furler she loved on the X, and we can still raise the mast by hand, even with the additional weight. No worries when the furler foil is heavily curved, as it can often be with a trailersailor.

So lets get real here. In the overall scheme of things, the compromise of using a Flexible Furler on a MacGregor powersailor pales in comparison to the other sailing compromises necessary for power operation and standing headroom. Yes, small things add up, and there's nothing wrong with making this Waterbago as good a sailboat as it can be. But many owners recognize all the compromises and adding one more for a furling foresail that stands up to trailersailing fits their overall use of the boat better. And that includes Leon and Geoff. What can we suggest for them other than replacing their roller furling?

[They Theirs]

Placing tracks outboard on the cabin top would benefit reaching, (Best point of sail for the Mac) and we surmise the owner noted some performance benefit with the wider sheeting angle on this point of sail. Using an inhaul or outhaul is common today for bettering sheeting angle on differing points of sail.

I have yet to see a set of tracks on the Mac that justify a #2 (135% sail). The outboard genoa tracks on the cockpit combing, angled upward, provide a somewhat limited range for sheet trim of a factory #1 genoa. Once the sail is furled, a #2 or #1, you’ll need to establish a proper trim and sheeting angle for the compromised sail shape. There will always be compromised sails, and the same for furling systems, but convincing new sailors the marginal CDI system and cheap factory sails will perform in anything more than light air, lacks reason and ethics. Reaching for bolt on rudders and a weighted daggerboard to offset control problems and unavoidable headstay sag, with deep draft from marginal sails and CDI roller/furling in heavy air, will not keep the boat on its best lines, under control.

Knowing the Mac is a budget boat, requiring expensive upgrades in sails and controls, rigging, (both running and standing) steering and rudders, and the very expensive weighted keel to recognize any realistic improvement sailing in a breeze. Delevi and others have established this.

Note: Recent sail design with improved materials has led to larger mainsails with smaller non-overlapping headsails. Especially in heavy air sailing.

I must say the cockpit of your Catalina, in the stove post, looks inviting, with its open cockpit and time honored tiller steering. Certainly a #2 with a CDI furler could work marginally better, with your long genoa tracks, inboard chain plates (better sheeting angle) side decks with a nice sheer line. Considering the boom-end sheeting to the transom, makes for better seating while allowing the crew to more easily move about the cockpit tacking.

[beene]

Hi Frank

If I've understood correctly, every boat, regardless of rudder style, must round-up when she heels past some certain threshold. I'm pretty sure that 55 degrees is well past.

I am just perplexed as to why the Mac does not handle like my other sailboat. On it, I can take almost any gust, point up into it, decrease upwind point angle due change in apparent wind angle and speed, return to normal tack when the gust is over. Now mind you my other boat uses a tiller, and I can FEEL more precisely what the water and boat are up to, but still?

G

[beene]

Hi Moe

If I followed your narrative correctly, after the first knockdown you were sailing reefed main only and yet this happened?

No..

OK, so now I was set up, tacking, reefed main, 30-40% genny.

What Frank said. At 50-60 heel degrees the single rudder remaining in the water is becoming an elevator and has more influence on lifting or lowering the stern than it does yawing the boat.

I guess I am used to being able to keep that heel down. Pointing up into the gust enough to ride it out and just take advantage of the headway gained due change in apparent wind angle. You should hear my shrouds howl when I do that on my 565, which in my opinion also has a good size cockpit for an 18.5 footer....






G

[beene]

Thanks for all the responses guys, much appreciated. What you all say is true and makes perfect sense to me. New, expensive, performance sails and rudders, are on the wish list for future purchases. But for now, I am still paying for the boat itself. I will just have to put up with reduced performance for now, knowing that some of those issues will be addressed in the future.

As for furlers, I know they are not as performance oriented as using hank on type with fore stays, especially not the CDI that I have, but I am not into racing, just cruising. I love being able to roll out enough sail to match the conditions. I know I know.... one sail fits all thing is not as good as having the right sail for every condition. But for me, that is not realistic. I am not going to go out and buy 5 headsails. I have the furling jib and Genny, and the Asym, but that's it. For the amount of times I am lucky enough to get to play in high wind conditions, at least for now and the foreseeable future, I am not going to add a storm sail to the mix.

I still feel that if I had bigger rudders, I could keep the M from heeling so much in a gust while on a beat by pointing up into it and riding it out. I won't know for sure until I try it. I have also found while on a broad reach, with the asym, I have a hard time keeping the boat under the mast. I apply rudder pressure to follow the gust, but still get too much heel, boat rounds up, keel up or down no dif, and cannot correct with rudders.

There must be some improvement to this issue otherwise why advertise this....

High performance rudders for Macgregor's latest boat, the 26M. Solves the tacking and pointing issues associated with the factory rudders. Virtually unbreakable, high performance foil, lifetime warranty. This will make you enjoy sailing your Mac 26M again. Better handling under sail and while docking, better pointing and off wind speed, get the good stuff for your Mac. Pricing is for a pair of rudders.

$399 for these...

After sailing only one season in a wide range of conditions, I am sold. Now I just have to sell it to the budget commitee.

Wish me luck.

G

[delevi]

Ok Geoff, I'll take a stab. As you know I'm a fan of the larger rudders. That in itself, however, won't allow your boat to handle to your satisfaction until you switch to 100 jib. As I mentioned in a different thread, my experience with the has been that she's really sensitive to headsail size. Smaller is usually better except in really light air. If you're going to keep one sail on the furler, I would certainly use the jib, especially since you have a gennaker in your inventory for the light stuff. Although I haven't had any other sailboat, there seems to be a consensus on this forum that the Mac sails differently from most other sailboats. You may need to alter your technique from what you did in the past. Don't fight the roundup. Let her head up a bit with neutral helm, then hive her a quarter turn and hold it there for a second. If she doesn't start to come back, go back to neutral helm and another quick 1/4 turn to leeward. All that said, this works considerably better with the larger rudders. The good news is that you can make her a much better handling boat. The bad news is as I have documented in numerous posts, it takes a number of mods, all of which add up $$$$$$. At the end of the day, she may still not handle like your other boat, but she will be considerably better. The inevitable question is... is it all worth doing? Between engine, sails and everything else, I have more money sunk into the boat than the bare boat itself. My answer is yes. Even at $45k+ what's out there that's better? I guess that's a personal choice, but I can say that after all the mods, I would feel just as comfortable sailing and handling my Mac as I would that 32 footer in Greece. Well, almost

If you choose to start dropping some money, I would prioritize with:
1. reduce mast rake
2. sails (especially getting the jib)
3. bigger rudders (with 2nd pin for protection, per "rudder past limit" post
4. added ballast solution. A few options here. Nice thing is you have that 75 hp so it won't really slow you down. I'm thinking a BWY style bulb keel, but at 250 lbs would be ideal. This is what I would do if I didn't have my current keel, but the 170# sure helps.

Ok, I'm done spending your money Hang in there. When I first got my boat, it gave me fits. The roundups drove me crazy. Even without mods, you will soon learn to reduce the problem. She's just a different kind of animal... takes time to learn to tame her. The only cure is to keep sailing

Cheers,
L.

[beene]

The only cure is to keep sailing

Thanks Leon

I think you just summed up the single most effective cure for many things in life, not just taming the new beast.

I will gladly take that prescription for the rest of my life.



G

[Moe]

I am just perplexed as to why the Mac does not handle like my other sailboat.

Because it's not a sailboat... it's a powersailor. Compare the "holes in the water" each make. Note where the greatest volume is on your sailboat, nearer the center of the boat with little to none as you approach the transom. That's why they spin easier around the yaw axis, tacking easier and making turns with almost no way on.

Now look at powersailor, with much greater volume to drag sideways through the water at the transom when turning, especially when providing bouyancy to a heavy outboard. Granted, the chines aren't as hard as a powerboat's, but it has directed thrust to overcome the problem.

On it, I can take almost any gust, point up into it, decrease upwind point angle due change in apparent wind angle and speed, return to normal tack when the gust is over.

Exactly... parry the puffs. With the powersailor, which responds much slower, I found I had to really watch the water surface for gusts coming and get ahead of them to do that (if you wait until you feel it, it's too late), or had to ease the sheets the instant the boat started heeling. I can be a little less vigilant now and almost never have to ease the sheets.

Now mind you my other boat uses a tiller, and I can FEEL more precisely what the water and boat are up to, but still?

Despite having had to learn to "steer backwards," Barb is catching onto the tiller quickly. She loves the instant response, even when she steers the wrong way, she knows instantly. She says with the Mac, she never knew if she was steering the right way, or enough, and then wound up oversteering as a result. That was very frustrating for her. It is easy to oversteer the powersailors. You have to give them time to react. I found it best to let the boat wander and steer an average course with minimal input.

That's how I see it as different. Like driving a 4WD F250 vs an MG. Or even sailing a big, full keel passagemaker vs a race boat. It's just something you get used to. Nice boats, those 565s!

[Currie]

I am just perplexed as to why the Mac does not handle like my other sailboat.

Because it's not a sailboat... it's a powersailor. Compare the "holes in the water" each make. Note where the greatest volume is on your sailboat, nearer the center of the boat with little to none as you approach the transom. That's why they spin easier around the yaw axis, tacking easier and making turns with almost no way on.

Now look at powersailor, with much greater volume to drag sideways through the water at the transom when turning, especially when providing bouyancy to a heavy outboard. Granted, the chines aren't as hard as a powerboat's, but it has directed thrust to overcome the problem.

Wonderful analysis Moe.

Yeah, there's no rise in the under-water hull as its line travels aft. The M's trailing edge of the hull is still well below waterline, for powering stability and planing no doubt.

Makes me think that rather than bigger rudders, one should move the rudders aft about a foot or so. like, on a aluminum/stainless chassis...with linkage - adding more steering leverage instead of surface-area to the rudders. Chassis could also double as a transom step/swim platform.

Hmmm - I nominate John Sheilds/Highlander for this experiment. He's no doubt up to the task.

~Bob
(4 - days to M acquisition)...sigh