Standing Rigging Tension?

[Boblee]

Well had a bit of a play and after reading this thread again adjusted the forstay turnbuckle all the way and after releasing the lowers moved the uppers three adjustments which gave about 2" bend in the mast then tightened the lowers up three adjustments which took an inch out of the mast bend.
The uppers are twanging tight and the lowers are now as tight as the uppers were before starting which is certainly not loose.
Will leave and once travelling and getting plenty of chances to sail will think about a gauge but for sure and certain none of the sailing will be in high winds so should be ok.
Thanks for all the advice.

[hvolkhart]

I went through the expenses and bought the $88 gauge. I invested a half Saturday to get the tension to the recommended 300# / 270# .
I testes the new set-up over the last two weekends. What a difference!!!!!!
I have now more control over the boat, the healing seams to be les, at least not so quickly. I really encourage everyone to look into this and get the tension set correctly.
Even by re-rigging the boat (trailering) the tension has not changed.
In order to attach the pin for the furler, I have attached a pull rope on the drum and use my foot to apply enough tension to insert the pin. I also use the spinnaker halyard to get the mast bend forward during the set-up. The halyard gets attached to one of the front cleats and I use the winch to apply some support tension.

[Bransher]

The West Marine online price for the Loos PT1 Tension Gauge is now up to $99.99 but on sale right now for $79.99 dollars.
Free shipping kicks in at orders over $99.00 so I ordered one today and added a couple of other small items that I needed to get the free shipping.
I also saw it advertised for $76.00 at sailingservices.com but did not check to see what they charge for shipping.

[kmclemore]

The West Marine online price for the Loos PT1 Tension Gauge is now up to $99.99 but on sale right now for $79.99 dollars.
Free shipping kicks in at orders over $99.00 so I ordered one today and added a couple of other small items that I needed to get the free shipping.
I also saw it advertised for $76.00 at sailingservices.com but did not check to see what they charge for shipping.

Sigh... another sad victim of threshold pricing.

[Bransher]

Sigh... another sad victim of threshold pricing.

They got me hook, line, and sinker.

By the way, disregard the low price from sailingservices.com......that apparently was a mistake because they now show it at $114.00.
Sorry about that.

[kmclemore]

Sigh... another sad victim of threshold pricing.

They got me hook, line, and sinker.

I think it's time to develop some sort of campaign to help victims such as yourself...

Innocent, unsuspecting persons who get caught up in a web of deception, only to later find they've been swindled out of their fortunes by the evils of THRESHOLD PRICING.
It's a horrible, sickening fate, which leaves a trail of broken and destitute shells of what once were human beings in its wake.
We need a celebrity spokesperson... (how about Mr. Whipple.. oh, um, no, he's probably dead.... OK, we'll have to work on that)...
we need a name.. ("Thresh-Aid?")...
we need a slogan... ("We Are The Screwed")
we need a theme-song... ("Money For Nothing" by Dire Straits?)
we need posters... (we'll get some kid to make'em - everyone will think having a kids do it is cool and timely... besides, the little runts work real cheap)
...and finally, we need to host a world-wide star-studded event to highlight the issue so that all the peoples of the world can unite in the cause of fighting this horrid scourge....
we'll sell tickets...
Hmmm... how's $99.99 each sound?
...and maybe even do special 'bulk order' deals... say (5) for $599.99?

[tangentair]

Does it include a slicer dicer and juliane fry maker if we call in the next 10 minutes?

[kmclemore]

Only for the first 99 callers!

[Bransher]

I’m starting to feel violated. I may require counseling from a consumers support group.
It is an addiction. I see the sign or advertisement that says “ON SALE” and I can’t resist.

kmclemore wrote:

...and finally, we need to host a world-wide star-studded event to highlight the issue so that all the peoples of the world can unite in the cause of fighting this horrid scourge....

Do you think Willy Nelson might be available to MC?

[kmclemore]

Do you think Willy Nelson might be available to MC?

Sure.. he's perfect... in fact, put him on a double-bill with MC Hammer and go for the wider audience... heck, they're the poster children for lousy fiscal management.

[Scott]

I hate to suggest this but a deflection meter for car belts would perform the same function, No' ?

I would think a clicker set to the tension you want would work at a substantially smaller price.

[DaveB]

Victor,
On a Trailer Sailing boat it is best to set tension on the standing rigging while on the Trailor. This will change when you launch and sail the boat in diffrent wind direction and heading. Beating to windward is most tension on the standing rigging.(make note than change when mast is down)
beating to windward in 15 knots of wind and tacking thru will give you how much slack in the rigging to adjust.
Upper standing rigging should be about 20% more than lower shroud.
What you have indicated is for a standing rig for mooring , not for Trailer Sailing.
Pinning the forestay would be to tough with that much tork on side stays if you were hosting mast up with two persons, with a gin pole it may and probably works.
I launch in 15 Min. once I get to ramp with myself and girlfriend. Gin pole takes to long to set up even the M pole I used once on my MacX.
My 2 inch quick release backstay allows me to pin the headstay and still gives the enough tension in Stays. I have Tension adjustment tool for up to 3/8 but never use it because the MacX deck and hull move over diffrent wind conditions and heading.
If the apperant wind is 15-20 knots, look at your stays, a little slack on leeward side is ok, to much slack can make for poor windward performance and danger to rigging and hull of a acidential Jibb.
The tension you mention would be ok for a person on a slip or mooring but Trailer Sail without gin pole would be to much.
It would be so much simplified useing turn buckles and adjust underway.
Dave

Buy the best Loos gauge (PT1) for 5/32" wire from Online Marine for $88 delivered: http://www.onlinemarine.com/cgi-local/S ... 1180680787. It is more accurate and clamps on the wire, hands free.

Having just finished removing as much rake as possible (excessive roundup), I found that on the final adjustment, slightly less than 1/2 of a hole = 30+ lbs. My final #'s on the shrouds are 300# on the uppers and 270# on the lowers. After sailing in the next two weeks I may move the upper shroud adjusters up 1/2 hole which will put the uppers at 270# and the lowers at 240#.

From research, I would tighten the forestay all the way. Then use the jib halyard or a chalk line tied from the top aft side of the mast for a straight reference along the aft of the mast from top to the foot. Completely loosen the lower shrouds (and backstay). Make sure that the upper shrouds are in the same holes (also measure the shrouds to make sure they are the same length). Tighten the upper shrouds until the mast has a 2 1/2" forward bend in the middle (preloads the mast). Check the tension to make sure it is around 200#. Then tighten the lowers to pull the mast back about 1/2", this which will also tighten the uppers as the mast tries to straighten. Check the tension and keep it below 270# (the lowers will have a lower tension). Check the tension on the uppers again. Keep repeating this process while maintaining the 2" forward mast bend until you get no more than 300# on the upper shrouds and 270# on the lowers (keeps the mast from pumping). With a gauge you can easily see the relationship between the shrouds.

The next step is to sail the boat and see how much the leeward shrouds slack.

The only thing I assumed was ok (based on #'s being less than the Loos recommendation for the shrouds) was the tension on the forestay since the furler was in place and it could not be measured. If you decide to take the fuler off and measure the tension, please post your results.

Without the gauge my lower shrouds were set to 600#! Hard to tell unless you are a super expert (even those guys use a gauge).

Any expert on this forum is free to correct this information. This is the simplified of what I read (and did) after many hours of research on the Mac 26X tunning. The one sail on the boat so far feels like a BIG improvement in handling and balance.

Victor

[vkmaynard]

Victor,
On a Trailer Sailing boat it is best to set tension on the standing rigging while on the Trailor. This will change when you launch and sail the boat in diffrent wind direction and heading. Beating to windward is most tension on the standing rigging.(make note than change when mast is down)
beating to windward in 15 knots of wind and tacking thru will give you how much slack in the rigging to adjust.
Upper standing rigging should be about 20% more than lower shroud.
What you have indicated is for a standing rig for mooring , not for Trailer Sailing.
Pinning the forestay would be to tough with that much tork on side stays if you were hosting mast up with two persons, with a gin pole it may and probably works.
I launch in 15 Min. once I get to ramp with myself and girlfriend. Gin pole takes to long to set up even the M pole I used once on my MacX.
My 2 inch quick release backstay allows me to pin the headstay and still gives the enough tension in Stays. I have Tension adjustment tool for up to 3/8 but never use it because the MacX deck and hull move over diffrent wind conditions and heading.
If the apperant wind is 15-20 knots, look at your stays, a little slack on leeward side is ok, to much slack can make for poor windward performance and danger to rigging and hull of a acidential Jibb.
The tension you mention would be ok for a person on a slip or mooring but Trailer Sail without gin pole would be to much.
It would be so much simplified useing turn buckles and adjust underway.
Dave

Dave I'm not sure where you got you information. The overall tension will not change from the land to the water. You need to tension for general conditions. The boat should be rigged to sail, not assemble. Since it is not a race boat it not feasible to tune it for the days condition.

We have no problems assembling the boat with the mast raising system.

As far as improvement in handling, ask the people that rigged their boats to these instructions including another Mac user here. MASSIVE improvement in handling. We have zero slack on the leeward lines. Can’t find any improvement in the tuning process.

I used to race and tune Hobie Cats. We tuned them on the land, and raced them on the water.

Why does the factory tune these boats to what I consider an unsafe and unfun condition? Sever roundup nearly thru our family out of our boat.

Victor

[DaveB]

Victor,
40 Years of sailing experance and many types of sailboat ownership along with many books and magizine on subject.
The Mac has no bulkheads to keep the hull from flexing. It also relies on a single lower stay for lower mast support.
What I was trying to explain was to have the stays adjusted while mast is up on trailer so you don't have to do it in the water. The boat does take a slightly diffrent form when it is in the water with full ballest, if you put tension of 270 lbs on stays than there shouldn't be much diffrence when launched.
My point is we don't want to use the mast raiseing system as I pointed out as it takes to long to hook up and we launch at busy ramps . Not useing the Gin Pole we cannot put that much tension on the standing rigging and will never be able to pin the forestay even tho we have a quick release backstay adjuster.
Both the mast and hull will flex beating to windward in 15 plus knots of wind under full sail.
When we launch it takes 15 min. from the time we are at the ramp and lines tied to boat at dock.
There is always at least 1-3 trailers waiting to launch.
Dave

Dave I'm not sure where you got you information. The overall tension will not change from the land to the water. You need to tension for general conditions. The boat should be rigged to sail, not assemble. Since it is not a race boat it not feasible to tune it for the days condition.

We have no problems assembling the boat with the mast raising system.

As far as improvement in handling, ask the people that rigged their boats to these instructions including another Mac user here. MASSIVE improvement in handling. We have zero slack on the leeward lines. Can’t find any improvement in the tuning process.

I used to race and tune Hobie Cats. We tuned them on the land, and raced them on the water.

Why does the factory tune these boats to what I consider an unsafe and unfun condition? Sever roundup nearly thru our family out of our boat.

Victor[/quote]

[vkmaynard]

I've been sailing on and off for 37 years so I understand sailboats also.

I used to fly hang gliders that required rigging for flying and not assembly.

Why would you want your rigging loose for any reason?

I've checked the tension on the water with our Loose gauge and did not notice any difference. I have not checked it with ballast, but I will just out of curiosity.

The hull and mast will flex beating to the windward, that is why the rigging needs to be properly tensioned. We've unfortunately been in a couple of Nor’easters and some overly high wind situations since tuning. No slack in the rigging and a great feel in a boat that does not try to throw us overboard.

It's worth the extra 10 mins each way for the entire day or following several days we are on the water. I would still use the mast raising system just for safety reasons with my kids helping out.

Not trying to get the last word in, just don't understand nor agree with rigging a boat to assemble instead of rigging a boat to sail.

Victor