Genoa vs. Jib

[Frank C]

... Now what I don't understand is why so many of you say the Mac is not a good upwind performer. I can get my boat to point really high and have hit speeds over 7 knots upwind. I don't think the boat makes much leeway at all. The board, though smaller than a typical keel is relatively long and seems to generate ample lift once you get going. I do agree about the inertia part. It is light, no question about that.

Leon,
Many Macs never see steady winds beyond 10 or 12 knots. Sailing a Mac in LESS than 10 knots can be downright boring ... which is why so many are sold with the Genoa.

Why criticize upwind performance? After reading here and on Sailnet for about 9 years I can offer an educated guess. We agree that the Mac shows impressive upwind speed. I've seen consistent 7 knots, just like you ... with reefed main and standard jib. But that requires a steady 18 knots of wind.

I feel part of the answer lies in freeboard. In lighter winds the freeboard is a giant billboard, detering progress, along with a bit of hull shape and that giant "sucking transom." But in heavy air the power in the sails easily overcomes these deficiencies.

The other answer lies in pointing. My boat doesn't point as high as most keelboats on the Bay. I think we generally don't keep the rig as tight as keelboats, and usually have a bit of forestay arc. VMG suffers even though speed is quite respectable. However, VMG is a red herring of sorts.

Pointing and VMG are absolutely critical to the keelboat skipper, who must constantly measure his progress if he hopes to dock before dark. Since we can always motor quickly to our destination, we can ignore VMG, pressing instead to enjoy every last breath of wind before dropping canvas .... we'll have a blast sailing, right up to 8 pm. It means we probably won't win many races under sail ... c'est la vie.

Purists may decry, but it's a "Mac 26" reality, a very important fact that is lost on the keelboaters .... until they've experienced the difference. We can sail for pure fun, tuning and tweaking for shape & speed, not for progress to a destination. Impure? ... so be it.

[tangentair]

Frank
OK....but if you have to choose between the jib and the 150 genoa and you are not in either a high wind or light wind but rather a mixed environment....and....you want to learn to sail or learn to sail better;
what would you take if you can only have one other sail on board - furled 150 genoa, hanked on jib, furled jib, with the factory main?

[Currie]

Frank
OK....but if you have to choose between the jib and the 150 genoa and you are not in either a high wind or light wind but rather a mixed environment....and....you want to learn to sail or learn to sail better;
what would you take if you can only have one other sail on board - furled 150 genoa, hanked on jib, furled jib, with the factory main?

I'm not Frank, but FWIW - I think that case is exactly where the genny-furling crowd is coming from - especially those who like to lead the sheets to the working jib tracks when furled. That way, when pointing, you can still get a better angle on the jib, and unfurl it as much as the wind conditions (or shrouds) will let you.

Cheers,
~Bob

[Frank C]

I agree. We all want to sail, at least some of the time, or we'd be driving that Bayliner. Yet, sailing a jibbed Mac in light air is likely to be almost painful. I'd choose a furling Genoa for those mid-range conditions. I even use the Genoa on SF Bay when I'm too lazy to swap-down to my jib, but the Genoa isn't much fun in 15 knots. BTW, mine is a "furling" jib, not as efficient as a hank-on, but a bit easier to manage.

[March]

I've been losing sleep and going back and forth on this issue: replace the furling jib with a genoa? That makes sense for light winds, but in moderate winds, it seems like the genoa (when half-furled to the size of a jib) would not give you as good a performance as the jib itself! So why not keep the jib and add a spinnaker for going real fast down wind? Then you'll really see a difference.

Now it seems that the genoa is indeed a good option, regardless of the sheeting problems and the cockpit cars?

Another possible configuration: keep the furling jib (instead of replacing it with a furling genoa) and add a forestay and a hanked-on genoa. Use the genoa when the winds are really light and the jib for moderate winds.

Everything is relative, of course, but I hate it when options balance out so well

[delevi]

replace the furling jib with a genoa? That makes sense for light winds, but in moderate winds, it seems like the genoa (when half-furled to the size of a jib) would not give you as good a performance as the jib itself! So why not keep the jib and add a spinnaker for going real fast down wind? Then you'll really see a difference.

That's my setup.

[Sloop John B]

Florida wind spring time is brisk. 10-15 knots. With 2pm doldrums. The jib is on the furler.

The jib is the only thing I can get upwind with. The no advance angle is about 50 degrees. I mean, to get the bubbles to ooze past you, you really have to fall off.

It's unmercifully boring in the open waters of the Gulf. For something to do I come about behind the cruising yawls and ketches and try to pass them. They see me, head up, and slip slip away. It's okay because I appreciate the Ford/Ferrari budget advantage.

With winds 5-10 knots, I love to reach with the genoa's sheet pulling the boat swiftly. But I can't see crap. Inside each minute I have to head up (level off), duck my head, and check to leeward. I wouldn't have confidence in a frosted hole or rectangle in the foresail. Each year, there are more and more boats out here.

[Catigale]

Its not hard to replace the headsail on the CDI furler on the water..takes about 15 minutes - you have to remember to run a messenger line up on the furler halyard of course....remember to order the second headsail with the *6 luff tape of course...

[Dimitri-2000X-Tampa]

It's a good point John makes about the visibility. Sometimes I roll up my Genoa a bit just so I can see better. Frankly, it all depends on the conditions. Like John, I mostly use my jib in the spring time when the winds are typically higher. But I have no U/V protection strip on my jib so I don't leave it on the furler for long. Most of the year, I leave my Genoa on...which does have a U/V protection strip.

I have held off on putting a strip in the jib due to the cost and also the fact that it would add more weight. But maybe this is a good idea.

[Frank C]

Following advice from someone here, I recently bought Costco's wireless bumper cam for my pickup. The monitor mounts at the dashboard while a wireless camera mounts on the rear license frame. The objective is to directly view the positioning of the towball vs. the trailer hitch.

The same camera could be mounted to the pulpit to see past that Genny ... cost was $80, all 12-volt stuff.
For those with a full-time laptop mounted below, any wireless computer cam could beam a picture from a bow-cam to the laptop display. Since I need to rewire my bow (nav) light anyhow, might just want two circuits up there.

[Dimitri-2000X-Tampa]

Well now there is a high tech solution Frank. Why not get some collision avoidance radar up there too while you are at it!

[ALX357]

I opted for the furled Genny, and a modded system of hank-on jib mounted on a removable hoistable forestay.
To use the hank-on jib, the Genny is furled and kept out of the way on its forestay, in front of the auxiliary jib-wire.
I bought a new Genny for the furler, and have the old one (2000X) as a spare, but will probably be selling it on eBay soon, after giving any board members here first opportunity. It is looking pretty good, but has a few small stains (rust) and a few loose threads.

[Highlander]

Hi All

I resolved this problem with my Cutter Rig & twin furlers was not cheap I must admit

John

[MikeFloutier]

I know this is a really old thread but it contains so much useful discussion on the subject I'm wrestling with:

How do I sheet my 150% Genoa when it's furled to 100/110%; in order to enjoy the improved pointing that should be available?

I tried leading the sheets through the jib cars (rear-most position) but, as the clew was now (naturally) so much higher, the pulling angle of the sheet was totally wrong (almost vertical) and defeating the object by being unable to tension the foot to any significant degree.

Thinking about it, although the size of the sail is much reduced, the correct "T" angle, i.e. sheet-to-forestay angle, remains the same. This implies that, although we want to sheet the clew more inboard (the reason for using the job tracks) we DON'T want to sheet it any further forward than the Genoa tracks - or at least we need some way of maintaining the correct "T" angle.

Now I haven't tried this yet so it may be totally wrong but I'm wondering if a simple solution might be to sheet directly to the winches.

What do you think? Any other suggestions?

[skibuff]

My boat works best when furled to 100-110 to run the sheets to the blocks on top of the cabin usually in the foremost position. That is how my boat points best. The only time I unfurl the jib more than 110% is when I know I'm going to be on a long run.