Are These Boats Suitable for Bluewater Cruising?

[Fairwinds]

Fairwainds allow me to inquire about saftey on the water and on shore, in remote isolated areas/.
Not weather or shallow water but of the human kind . Is there need for any concern?

My wife and I have lived in Mexico for 10 years, 9 months a year. We LIVE in a remote, isolated area. ALL of the Sea Of Cortez is remote and isolated. There is no Coast Guard. Forget 911. Petty theft of items left unsecured? Sure. Violent crime? Almost unheard of. If you are involved with drug trafficking, that's another story. Need help? Just ask for it. Mexicans are ALWAYS willing to help..Should I try REAL HARD to learn a little Spanish? Yes you should. Will I suffer culture shock? Yes you will.

Well Frank, I learned one thing, it takes at least 40hp to empty the ballast tanks while underway. That's probably good to know..That's why I'm here. But you see, I've never owned a boat with water ballast and the thought of emptying the tanks while underway never occurred to me.. Does McGregor recommend operating the boat with no ballast? I'm a steel and lead man. The thought of operating a sailboat with no ballast scares the hull out of me! I notice the "M" boats have 300 pounds of PERMANENT ballast. There must be a reason for that..Sailboats look REAL FUNNY when they are upside down!

Steering. I thought the RUDDER(s) steered the boat, not the engine..On a Lancer 27PS, the engine pivot is locked, so I ASSumed the Mac's were the same..

Since hull speed, 6 or 8 knots, can be easily achieved with 10 hp, let alone 25, and smaller engines DO burn less fuel because they are simply more efficient, less reciprocating mass, power settings being equal..They weigh a lot less too. Unnecessary weight is a bad thing, right? The logs of most sailboats used for recreation will show they are MOTORED 60-70% of the time. But my log has me under sail 75% of the time. That's why I own a sailboat. Because I enjoy SAILING! But when the winds on your nose, the tides against you and it's getting late, well I bet the sound of a 50hp motor sounds pretty sweet! I don't want to get into a pi$$ contest with you, I know a lot about boats. But I know next to NOTHING about McGregors. They are a strange animal to me..

[Fairwinds]

Fairwainds allow me to inquire about saftey on the water and on shore, in remote isolated areas/.
Not weather or shallow water but of the human kind . Is there need for any concern?

My wife and I have lived in Mexico for 10 years, 9 months a year. We LIVE in a remote, isolated area. ALL of the Sea Of Cortez is remote and isolated. There is no Coast Guard. Forget 911. Petty theft of items left unsecured? Sure. Violent crime? Almost unheard of. If you are involved with drug trafficking, that's another story. Need help? Just ask for it. Mexicans are ALWAYS willing to help..Should I try REAL HARD to learn a little Spanish? Yes you should. Will I suffer culture shock? Yes you will.

Well Frank, I learned one thing, it takes at least 40hp to empty the ballast tanks while underway. That's probably good to know..That's why I'm here. But you see, I've never owned a boat with water ballast and the thought of emptying the tanks while underway never occurred to me.. Does McGregor recommend operating the boat with no ballast? I'm a steel and lead man. The thought of operating a sailboat with no ballast scares the hull out of me! I notice the "M" boats have 300 pounds of PERMANENT ballast. There must be a reason for that..Sailboats look REAL FUNNY when they are upside down!

Steering. I thought the RUDDER(s) steered the boat, not the engine..On a Lancer 27PS, the engine pivot is locked, so I assumed the Mac's were the same..

Since hull speed, 6 or 8 knots, can be easily achieved with 10 hp, let alone 25, and smaller engines DO burn less fuel because they are simply more efficient, less reciprocating mass, power settings being equal..They weigh a lot less too. Unnecessary weight is a bad thing, right? The logs of most sailboats used for recreation will show they are MOTORED 60-70% of the time. But my log has me under sail 75% of the time. That's why I own a sailboat. Because I enjoy SAILING! But when the winds on your nose, the tides against you and it's getting late, well I bet the sound of a 50hp motor sounds pretty sweet! I don't want to get into a ******* contest with you, I know a lot about boats. But I know next to NOTHING about McGregors. They are a strange animal to me..

[Fairwinds]

Fairwainds allow me to inquire about saftey on the water and on shore, in remote isolated areas/.
Not weather or shallow water but of the human kind . Is there need for any concern?

My wife and I have lived in Mexico for 10 years, 9 months a year. We LIVE in a remote, isolated area. ALL of the Sea Of Cortez is remote and isolated. There is no Coast Guard. Forget 911. Petty theft of items left unsecured? Sure. Violent crime? Almost unheard of. If you are involved with drug trafficking, that's another story. Need help? Just ask for it. Mexicans are ALWAYS willing to help..Should I try REAL HARD to learn a little Spanish? Yes you should. Will I suffer culture shock? Yes you will.

Well Frank, I learned one thing, it takes at least 40hp to empty the ballast tanks while underway. That's probably good to know..That's why I'm here. But you see, I've never owned a boat with water ballast and the thought of emptying the tanks while underway never occurred to me.. Does McGregor recommend operating the boat with no ballast? I'm a steel and lead man. The thought of operating a sailboat with no ballast scares the hull out of me! I notice the "M" boats have 300 pounds of PERMANENT ballast. There must be a reason for that..Sailboats look REAL FUNNY when they are upside down!

Steering. I thought the RUDDER(s) steered the boat, not the engine..On a Lancer 27PS, the engine pivot is locked, so I assumed the Mac's were the same..

Since hull speed, 6 or 8 knots, can be easily achieved with 10 hp, let alone 25, and smaller engines DO burn less fuel because they are simply more efficient, less reciprocating mass, power settings being equal..They weigh a lot less too. Unnecessary weight is a bad thing, right? The logs of most sailboats used for recreation will show they are MOTORED 60-70% of the time. But my log has me under sail 75% of the time. That's why I own a sailboat. Because I enjoy SAILING! But when the winds on your nose, the tides against you and it's getting late, well I bet the sound of a 50hp motor sounds pretty sweet! I don't want to get into a ******* contest with you, I know a lot about boats. But I know next to NOTHING about McGregors. They are a strange animal to me..

[Fairwinds]

Well frank you learned me at least one thing, that it takes at least 40 hp to allow the ballast tanks to drain..But why would I want to do that? Is it important that I CAN do that? Water ballast is a new and strange thing to me. I have a feeling as long as my boat is in the water, my ballast tanks will be full. But a steel and lead man is bound to think like that.

Shaft length. The longer the shaft, the less chance of having the prop come out of the water. Having the prop in the water is good. So a 25" shaft must be good..That seems simple enough..

I have been a sailor for a long time. My time on the water is spent 70% under sail, 30% under power. Many sailboat owners have just the opposite sail/power ratio. So my need for a large, powerful engine might be less than some other owners..The difference between a 25hp engine and a 50hp engine is considerable in both weight and fuel burn. Carefully selected and equipped, a 25hp motor should be adequate, except for that ballast tank issue which I will surely investigate!

Hey, one more thing..There is no way up to the bow except to climb over the cabin top! Yes, it makes for a nice big cabin, but going over the top will take a little getting used to...The life-lines look a little funny up there..

divecoz, I PMed you about your security / safety questions...

[marsanden]

i agree with you,fairwinds.
But the difference between a macgregor and any other sailing boat is done by the chanse to be a powerboat too.
Thats why a 50 hp is better than a 25.
If you need a sailboat, well i know lots of no rigid keel boats that sails much better than a mac.

[Frank C]

...The difference between a 25hp engine and a 50hp engine is considerable in both weight and fuel burn. Carefully selected and equipped, a 25hp motor should be adequate, except for that ballast tank issue which I will surely investigate!...

I probably misspoke ... while most 25 hp outboards probably cannot plane the Mac, I imagine most will at least lift the bow so that ballast can drain ... probably. That point might be moot, since I'd guess it very unlikely you will find a Mac with 25 hp installed. More importantly, there is NO SIGNIFICANT difference between a 25hp and 50hp engine for either weight, OR fuel burn.

25hp .. 50hp

185 ... 205 ... Honda ..... weight difference 20 pounds
209 ... 243 ... Suzuki .... weight difference 34 pounds

(note that a Suzuki 25 weighs more than a Honda 50 )

As described in the previous post, all of these motors will burn about the same fuel at the same speed (a given hull). The identical speed in a given hull demands equal horsepower. Identical horsepower produced by either engine will consume a nearly identical amount of fuel.

Remember, you are not comparing mileage of a Civic to a Hummer, where the engine is much larger AND the weight has tripled. The weight of the boat is identical (assuming full ballast).
Fuel burn relates to weight & speed. It is effectively unrelated to engine size.

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

When ever we plan to motor any distance over 2-3 miles we drain the ballast. All our motoring is with empty ballast except when it is very rough or the distance is short. It makes a big difference in fuel burn and rpm required for a given speed which has a direct effect on noise level in the cockpit. Having the ability to empty ballast under way is a very important feature of the boat as far as I am concerned. We also always empty prior to returning to the dock to load the boat on the trailer. This makes a significant impact on the time spent at the ramp.

Extended trips: The longest trip our family of 5 has made on our X is 23 days, 500+ Nmiles. You can make extended cruises in these boats. Consider a full enclosure a must have for these trips.

[Terry]

i agree with you,fairwinds.
But the difference between a macgregor and any other sailing boat is done by the chanse to be a powerboat too.
Thats why a 50 hp is better than a 25.
If you need a sailboat, well i know lots of no rigid keel boats that sails much better than a mac.

Hear, Hear, I have to agree with marsanden, if it is just sailing you want get a better sailboat than the Mac.
For dual purpose in all conditions get a 50hp or higher, anything less is a waste of $$. I sail in the PNW same as WnW and Duane and conditions here go from one extreme to the other. I have seen the water so flat one could ice skate if it froze, yet I have seen 50 knot winds whip up the water enough to flatten any keelboat. The best advantage of extra horsepower is the ability to navigate the passes outside slack tide, the currents can easily exceed 6 knots and most sailboats wait for slack tide whereas the mac can switch to it's alter ego, 'powerboat' and throttle through. We have many of these passes up in the Pacific Northwest.

[Catigale]

I dont know what the tide situation is in Mexico, which is obviously relevant to the 25 vs 50 debate - up here on the upper Hudson with 3 kt tides the 50 makes the boat a lot more useful.

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

Good point about the currents. Up here you'll find 1 - 3 knot currents all over the place. Now that I have both speed over ground and speed through water measurements I've been surprised at the currents that are present in seamingly open water.

The more restricted current passes in the PNW range from 5 knots to 15+ knots at peak. The strongest I've yet pushed the Mac through was Deception Pass when it was running at a 7+ knots flood current. I was going with it making rpms for 8 knots and scooting along at over 15 knots on the GPS. It was a quick trip weaving around the whirlpools. The boys were quite impressed by their size. Other notable ones we've gone through are the Tacoma Narrows, Agate pass, The Port Townsend Canal (against a 4 knot peak current), Dodd Narrows, Malibu Rapids, and Gabriola Pass.

The largest I've witnessed (from shore) is Skookumchuck rapids up in BC running 15.8 knots flood according to the current atlas. What a sight, 8' high standing waves like a white water river. The kayakers would go out and paddle in the waves until they got washed down flow then pull into the shore and ride the back eddy right back to the point we were watching from.

[Fairwinds]

Keep those cards and letters coming! We just got back from The Anchorage in Lyons, Colo and inspected both an "X" and an "M" closely. The salesperson assured me the ballast water could be drained with a 25hp engine, and probably even a 10hp..The brochure claims it can be drained at any speed over 6 knots. But that same person recommended at least 40hp to get the most out of the boat. Many 30' keel boats weighing 6-9K pounds get by with 15-20hp inboard 2 cylinder diesels as their axillary engines. Planing of course is out of the question.

One nagging question..On the "X" boats, there appears to be no way to lock the keel down. It's free to swing back and forth as it pleases under the boat. This does not seem right..When beating close-hauled into the wind, you want that centerboard to be down all the way and not be moving around. Is there a locking provision, or is this one of those McGregor "we never worry about it" things.

Yes indeed, the "M" boat had some nice features, head location and increased headroom over the rear birth being the most significant. I liked the "X" transom and rudder set-up better.

[marsanden]

.......One nagging question..On the "X" boats, there appears to be no way to lock the keel down. It's free to swing back and forth as it pleases under the boat. This does not seem right..When beating close-hauled into the wind, you want that centerboard to be down all the way and not be moving around.........



The Mac " M" keel is different than "X" keel.

I own a X , no problem with the keel when sailing.It doesnt move around while sailing.
Anyway,some time is better it is half down then all the way down,sailing close -hauled into the wind too.

[DLT]

My M's dagger board stays down, because it fills with water. I assume the X's centerboard is similar.

The wieght of the water won't let it just flop around. The advantage of the swing keel over the dagger board, is that the swing keel will actually fold back when you hit something...

[Chip Hindes]

One nagging question..On the "X" boats, there appears to be no way to lock the keel down. It's free to swing back and forth as it pleases under the boat. This does not seem right..When beating close-hauled into the wind, you want that centerboard to be down all the way and not be moving around. Is there a locking provision, or is this one of those McGregor "we never worry about it" things.

Yes, this is indeed one of those ""we never worry about it" things" because it doesn't happen. There is no need to lock the centerboard down under any condition of wind or power.

When on any point of sail other than dead downwind, the wind on the sails provides lateral forces which try to push the boat sideways, creating leeway. The centerboard resists leeway, and the sideways force locks the centerboard against the sides of the trunk, so that it can't "move around" and it can't "swing back and forth as it pleases." The forces generated are pretty high; and you can't raise or lower the centerboard unless the sails are luffing or you're headed dead downwind; in both cases, no lateral forces on the centerboard.

[Fairwinds]

Thanks Chip, that answers it..The lightweight board is self-locking because of dynamic forces acting on it. Many older trailerable sailboats have steel or iron swing keels that weigh half a ton. They can and do swing uncontrollably because of their mass, especially when the boat is pitching when beating upwind. Dynamic forces will not "pin" them in place. They need a positive locking mechanism..The daggerboard in the "M" can not swing, an improvement over the "X" as long as one remembers to raise it in shallow water..But the thought of a "self-positioning" freely swinging centerboard sounds a little scary to me..The only way to tell where it is positioned is to "feel" the lift rope, correct?

Changing the position of the centerboard changes the "center of resistance" and will greatly effect how the boat steers, along with sail trim.

I suspect power-sailer owners don't sail upwind very much, but should you wish to try it, that centerboard needs to be all the way down if you want to get "close to the wind"..It's what gives your boat it's upwind "bite". If the centerboard is only half-way down, the center of resistance moves aft and the boat will have lee helm, not a good thing..