for those possesing this arcane knowledge, Please advise:
A racing sailor I ran into at the boat show last week suggested some things to me that leave me really confused. I had pretty much decided to get an assymetric spinnaker, and mentioned it to him, and he said “Why bother”. “Most assymetrics for fractional rigs are only 168 percent., and since you already have a 150 genoa, you aren’t going to gain anything” “Sail off the wind for a while, and when you pick up speed start using the apparent wind advantage and sail more towards direct downwind” The phrf penalty for a spin is 12 points, and it probably isn’t worth running and assymetric“ he said?
Does this make sense to you experienced spinnaker users? How much bigger is a symmetric spinnaker? Any counter advice?
I always thought that the sym spin (with pole) just gets you closer to ddw, not necessarily that it is a bigger sail. You can buy different size spins if you want. The other thing about a spin is its cut, it is more of a chute and not as much of a foil (think airplane wing) so you get better downwind performance (trading off the upwind performance). Another difference is that I can single hand an asym whereas doing that with a sym would be a lot more difficult, if not nearly impossible. I think a lot of old racers used to be religiously against asyms, but nowadays they are used a lot more and gaining a lot more acceptance.
I use the Macgregor Spinnaker which I bought with my 26x. Crossing Erie about 58 miles, broad reaching in 15-25mph winds and surfing 3`-4`waves, I averaged 11.5 knots. I didnt think my GPS was accurate but it took 5-1/2 hours which is about 11.5 knots. I have yet to repeat this speed. Using my genoa is similar conditions I don`t think I exceded 7 knots.
John McDonough wrote:I use the Macgregor Spinnaker which I bought with my 26x. Crossing Erie about 58 miles, broad reaching in 15-25mph winds and surfing 3`-4`waves, I averaged 11.5 knots. I didnt think my GPS was accurate but it took 5-1/2 hours which is about 11.5 knots. I have yet to repeat this speed. Using my genoa is similar conditions I don`t think I exceded 7 knots.
Don't recall anyone ever before posting a story of such a long reach, at such speeds ... 7 to 9 knots is a more common report. You provide an excellent frame of reference for the archives.
GPS speed readings are pretty reliable ... if it's not working, it won't show anything. If it IS working, the algorithm is pretty much foolproof. Ya just gotta be sure it's reading the same units you are thinking in, miles, KMs or knots. Proof's in the pudding ... arrival time vs. the mapped distance.
I recall a claim of reaching speeds of 17mph here on this site a few years ago.
Averaging a speed of 11.5 knots I reached max speeds of 14 knots and low speeds of 8 knots. I was sailing 0-north with sw winds and surfiing the waves adds speed.
Mod's Note: "claims" of 17mph under sail are Official Marketing Puffery!
It apparently requires more Puff than anyone has ever found, on the water! -fc
My asymm (stock if there is such a thing) has much more fabric at the head even if it is only incrementally larger L/P than the genny....in light air the spin will leave a genny equipped boat in the dust (as long as Im not at the helm)
John McDonough wrote:broad reaching in 15-25mph winds and surfing 3`-4`waves
Inspiring story. I did not think she could take that much before she just blew out. I don't have that much experience using it, but when the wind picked up last time I used it, things got real interesting real fast. I was single handed and just getting used to the boat, so I quickly pulled her down. Just not yet convinced the Mac is built to take those kind of conditions. I need some more hands on with her, then I will report back.
John McDonough wrote:broad reaching in 15-25mph winds and surfing 3`-4`waves
Inspiring story. I did not think she could take that much before she just blew out. I don't have that much experience using it, but when the wind picked up last time I used it, things got real interesting real fast. I was single handed and just getting used to the boat, so I quickly pulled her down. Just not yet convinced the Mac is built to take those kind of conditions. I need some more hands on with her, then I will report back.
The Mac takes those winds in her stride beene, 15-25 is the lower end of small craft waring, the one that warns you to get off your butt and get out there to enjoy yourself.
If I understand correctly, the spin is the way to go if you want to noticeably improve your speed, but it works only downwind. The genoa might offer additional surface, and will help you sail against the wind. Is the speed difference between using a jib or a genoa all that great? I was thinking about getting a genoa, but if it provides only a slight increase in speed when you sail close to the wind, I'd better get a spinnaker instead, and squeeze all the advantages when I go downwind.
Is that it?
An Asym spinn has other advantages over the 150 geno besides sail area.
It is a much lighter cloth and will fly far easier in light air. The fuller shape will resist collapsing better than the blade shape. You will find it easier to fly the asym than to keep the genoa drawing in the same conditions.
I find it difficult to keep my 150 genoa full when flown behind the main. The fuller round shape of the asym is more exposed to the air flow and will not collapse as often.
Even without a big size advantage you will find it easier to go down wind with the asym.
Someday I'll get one, but for now my solution is to go wing on wing with the genoa as soon as I am pointed deep enough to keep the sail from backwinding. Adding a whisker pole has made this a very useful configuration that works anywhere from a broad reach to a run.
I have heard of whisker poles but have never seen one and don't really know how one is used.
I have tried wing and wing a few times and it is difficult to keep the sails working right...both times the winds were pretty light.
Maybe a whisker pole would help. Can you tell me what it is and how you use it? [on edit: I mean use one on a 150 Genoa...I don't have a spinnaker and don't really want to buy one]
I am also wondering if maybe a preventer would work to hold the boom out but have never seen one of those either.
Jim - the Forespar 6/12/ADJ whisker pole is a popular one for the Mac - Ive broken at least three of them including one that wasnt mine...
You clip it to an eye on the mast (clip from the BOTTOM) and then either spear through the clew of the genoa or clip onto the sheet, depending on the thing on the end of the whisker pole being a spear or a clip.
THey are nice in steady light wind...in puffy winds like on the Hudson, they like to go SNAP! and dance the up and down in the river before they take the long trip to Davey Jones locker..BTDT
Terry wrote:The Mac takes those winds in her stride beene,
I was referring specifically to the kite, not the boat itself, sorry I should have been more clear. I have written several posts about how I go out in 30+kt just cause it's fun and the Mac handles it with ease. When I was flying the kite, it seemed that the thin parachute material it is made of did not inspire confidence in its abilities. I am not used to spinnakers as I have no previous experience with them. My other sailboat has a pole for it, but I never bothered to buy a sail.
What is the max wind anyone has used their asym in? I believe Scott has lots of experience with it, want to chime in with your words of wisdom
if there is such a thing) has much more fabric at the head even if it is only incrementally larger L/P than the genny....in light air the spin will leave a genny equipped boat in the dust (as long as Im not at the helm)
