Suzuki DF70 - Installation & Transom

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

BWY installs Suzuki 70's on new M's without any additional transom reinforcements. They have had no issues so far.

[beene]

Hi Duane

I was sure I saw a post on here from BWY about the DF70 and using transom reinforcement. I will look around and see if I can find it. I could be wrong, as I often am, but I will look just to be sure.

Cheers

G

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

I'll take a close look at their demo boats at the Seattle Boat show on Friday. If they do add some I'm sure Todd would be willing to sell it as a kit.

[beene]

I found this for starters...

Just thought I would answer a couple of your questions. First the reason that we are changing to the Suzuki 4 Stroke is in part that we are getting a little more speed, but mostly using significantly less fuel, and A LOT quieter than the TLDI or an e tec. The Admiral (Cheryl) though that it was VERY important to be able to enjoy that 1200 Watt stereo system which we couldn't hear over the 2 stroke!

As a point of note we even experimented with the TLDI 90 (we experimement with lots of things on The Pearl) as it was an easy thing to do, there is no difference between a TLDI 70 and a TLDI 90 except for the programing in the ECM and a throttle stop. Unfortunately we found that we gained nearly no speed configured as a 90 (though it did match the Suzuki 70) but it sure used fuel like a 90! The lack of performance increase is atributable to the fact that when configured as a 90, the TLDI motor produces the same torque as a 70, and torque moves these boats. We see about 22.5 mph fully loaded with the Suzuki, that's with bottom paint (coperpoxy) and the drag of the keel bulb. Our fully equipped but modestly loaded demo boat sees about 24-25.

Some of you have correctly figured out that the real issue is speed, not horsepower or weight. I have no concerns about the weight (other than the obvious, weight is never a GOOD thing, which is why we put the TLDI on The Pearl in the first place) of any of these 60 or 70 HP engines, the issue is flex in the hull bottom, not breaking the transom, and the potential for fatigue over time. We never put bigger than a 50 on an X as it's relatively flat bottom takes more of a beating as speed increases. The hull bottom on the M is a deeper V, reducing the loads on the hull structure, and it is also about 35% thicker than the X, making it a lot stronger.

The reason people have not had a lot of problems with overpowered X's is that they have obviously not been stupid. As a dealer or manufacturer, we cannot put an engine on a boat that gives someone the power to beat the boat to death if they don't back off when they should.

Also, with all things set up right, the performance of a Suzuki 50 and either the old Nissan / Tohasu 50D or the TLDI 50 is identical (within .5 mph), if people are finding more difference than that, it's either setup, load, or bottom condition.

Hope this answers some questions.

[Derrick]

Gentlemen:

Thanks for all the feedback. It will definetly help in my decision.

Duane: I would be interested in what you see on the BWY boat at the Seattle show regarding transom reeforcement.

I was talking with a Evenrude dealer today. Seems that they are offering a 7 year warranty on any new motors bought during the boat show tour period.

As far as pricing, it seams that I can get a DF70 about $600.00 cheaper than an E-Tec 60 so far.

Still looking and still weighing options?

Thanks again for the advise!

[John Willis]

Hi gang.

This is my first post. I just bought a new MacGregor from BWY and will take delivery in March. I have followed the discussion board for some time and I believe that it is one of the greatest forums on the web. This thread was particular interesting because my MacGregor will be equipped with a Suzuki 70. Hope that I made the right decision. The reliability, performance, and a 6-year extended warrant are very attractive.

I reside in Southern California, but travel to the Puget Sound area quiet often. Plan to bring my truck up in the fall and trailer my boat back to California. Look forward to joining additional threads. Again, thanks for all your good advice. Cheers!

John

[albion]

You used to be able to get the same Suzuki motor from Johnson with a white case that also looks great on a Mac.

YES THE LAST YEAR FOR SUZUKI (JOHNSON) OVER 35HP I BELIEVE WAS 2006 .

[albion]

This is a question for Derrick and Matt, I bought a 2007 M from Bill B4S last August. Bill took me and the boat over to OX-BO MARINE near his place. I paid $7295 for a Suzuki 50hp motor installation including prop, fittings and all the parts , controller wires etc. My question to Derrick & Matt is. How much was the motor you bought and why did,nt you ask Bill about OX-BO. They did a good job for me and I only paid tax on $17,000 for the boat, motor and trailer the way I got the invoice written up.

[beene]

Hi gang.

Welcome aboard John. Once you get your Mac and have logged some hours of fun, be sure to let us know how you find the DF70 as an all round performer.

Cheers

G

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

Here's some more info on engines from the BWY web site.

An interesting thing that is aluded to in the post from Todd that you quoted is his experience with going bigger and the M hull. When we talked up in Friday Harbor last summer he indicated that while the M hull rides softer, tracks better, and is built stronger, the new fuller rounded hull shape gives it a top end limit on speed. As he pointed out in your quote, going up to a 90 on and M did not make any increase in top speed. This is in contrast to the X hull shape which goes faster every time you up the horsepower. He felt that a 70hp on an M gives you the most performance you are going to get out of it's particular hull shape. Now I'm sure if you were to stick a 140 on it it would go faster, but it does not benefit from the increased horsepower in a linear fashion like the X does.

WHAT SIZE ENGINE DO I WANT ON MY MACGREGOR 26M

HOW CAN BLUE WATER YACHTS INSTALL 70HP ENGINES?

The MacGregor factory has authorized a small number of very experienced full service dealers to install engines up to 70hp, Blue Water Yachts is one of those dealers. Not all dealers are allowed to install the 70hp and no do-it-yourselfers are, as there are many variables (engine model, brand etc.) that determine whether the installation will work satisfactorily. Most MacGregor dealers only sell a small number of boats and often farm out the engine installation to a local outboard shop who may never have rigged Macgregors before. These boats are unique, and require specialized parts and techniques to rig properly. We have worked closely with the factory on this project (in fact we did the initial 70hp performance tests on the 26M) and have carefully monitored the performance of these boats in the field.

We have designed and put into production a custom steering option that allows the motor to quickly and easily be disconnected from the rudders and attached to a fixed position while sailing, this allows you to have steering control to point the boat into the wind while raising the sails by running the motor while steering with rudders only. When you want to be able to turn sharper, say docking, the engine can be attached to the rudders and will turn with the rudders giving you a directed thrust. For high speed motoring you raise the rudders out of the water and steer with just the engine. We also use a variety of specialized installation parts including special control cables that allow the throttle box to be nicely installed on the side of pedestal with the cables running through the pedestal leg so you have the smoothest most reliable control without any cables underfoot.

MOTORING PERFORMANCE WITH VARIOUS ENGINE SIZES

The smallest engine we recommend is around 30hp (although it is very rare to sell a boat with less than 50hp), you can use smaller engines, but the weight and cost savings just don’t make much sense compared to the performance loss unless you already have an engine and are on a really limited budget.

All of the performance numbers given below are for a fully equipped boat (such as our Super Cruising Package), but not a lot of cruising gear. As you add weight, the boat will slow down some, especially with the smaller motors.

Motoring speeds with the 30hp will be about 10mph cruise and 13mph top

Motoring speeds with the 50 hp Suzuki engine will be about 14mph cruise and 19mph top.

Motoring speeds with the 70 hp Suzuki engine will be about 20 cruise and 24 top. The big difference is that you can get about 18mph cruise with the water ballast full ! That is adding 1100 lb. and it still cruises at 18, that means that if you have a lot of load in your boat (people and gear) the extra power really helps keep the speed up. The goal with the 70hp is not to make the boat go super fast, but to have a good cruising speed even with a loaded boat.. The operating RPM range of the 70hp is also lower than the 50hp and hence the motor is not working as hard and is a little quieter too.

We would also expect resale value to be better with the 70hp, as that is what the majority of buyers want.

DOES THE BIGGER ENGINE HURT SAILING PERFORMANCE?

While the addition of weight to the transom of any boat has, by definition, some negative effect on sailing performance, the weight difference between the 50 hp or the 70 hp does not make any noticeable difference. Either engine is out of the water when sailing and the boat sails great with either engine. If, in a race, you had exactly the same weight on two identical boats the boat with the 50 hp engine would have a very slight advantage as it is 100 lb. lighter but you also would need crew with the same skills to take advantage of this and even then the winds would likely need to be in your favor.

WHY DOES BLUE WATER YACHTS USE SUZUKI AND NISSAN ENGINES?

There are a variety of engine choices available, just to make all the decisions that go into purchasing a new boat even more difficult (or fun) depending on how you look at this. We offer Suzuki and Nissan engines.

The Suzuki engines are 4 stroke models and are very reliable, extremely quiet, and offer the best fuel economy of any engines available at these power ratings. No other 50hp or 70hp engines offer the level of technology available in these engines, including long port intake runners for improved torque, and electronic fuel injection. Every Suzuki outboard is factory “Balanced and Blueprinted” to ensure the best possible performance and incredible smoothness, this painstaking process is normally reserved for custom built race engines. Suzuki engines are #1 in customer satisfaction, #1 in initial quality, and outperform all competitors at every horsepower rating. While a little more expensive and somewhat heavier than the Nissan 2 stroke engines, they are comparable in price and weight to other 4 stroke engines. We consider the Suzuki 50 and 70 to be the ultimate engines for the MacGregor, we have chosen them for both our demonstrator boat and our personal boat.

The Nissan engines are new technology Direct Fuel Injected 2 stroke engines that meet all emissions standards (including California), offer fuel economy that is nearly as good as the Suzuki, and better than most 4 stroke engines, including Honda. The DFI Nissan engines, especially the 50hp, are somewhat lighter than any 4 stroke of comparable power, requires less maintenance, but are NOT as quiet, especially at low speeds.

We have tested other engines and found that these were the engines we wanted for the boat for several reasons. They provide low end torque and enough power to move the boat to the performance levels we were wanting. We also wanted engines that are reliable with very a very low rate of warranty issues (we do not want our customers unhappy with their boat just because of engine problems), and were quiet and fuel efficient.

NOTES ON OTHER ENGINES WE HAVE TESTED.

Honda 50hp engine: All modern four stroke engines are reliable, quiet and good on gas. The Honda engine does not perform to the standard we were looking for though. It does not have good low end torque and hence does not get the boat moving fast or find the top speed we were looking for. This engine was introduced as a 35 / 45 hp engine then that same engine became a 40 / 50 hp engine. These are different models with the same block and basic engine but with different tuning to produce the extra hp. Even Honda dealers we have talked to say they could find no change when the 45 became a 50, except for the name. The Honda engine is a carbureted engine (not fuel injected like the Suzuki) and does not have as good fuel economy as we wanted.

Honda 75hp engine: Too big to fit right on the boat, above the Max. power rating, and still not fuel injected.

Mercury 50 / 60 hp Bigfoot engine: Good Power, but we found it to be just plain too noisy and rough running and we did not want to sell it for that one big reason. It was noisier than the Nissan two cycle engines and not as fuel efficient

Yamaha 50 / 60 hp High Thrust: The same motor as the Mercury

Johnson 50 / 70 4 Stroke: Made by Suzuki, identical except the color of the paint

Evinrude ETEC 50 / 60hp: The third generation of OMC’s Ram Ficht 2 stroke technology, now built by Bombardier. Excellent fuel economy and compact size, but heavy and expensive. There have been so many major problems with the earlier versions of this technology, that we just aren’t yet ready to ask our customers to risk seven or eight thousand dollars on an intriguing but not yet proven technology. As of late 2005, almost one third of all Evinrude buyers reported a signIficant problem with their engine in the first 30 days alone!

[Dimitri-2000X-Tampa]

Ok, there are a few things in this thread that don't make good sense:

1. How can you make a hull 35% thicker, add 300# of extra fiberglass around the daggerboard trunk and end up with an M which is only 300# heavier than an X? Seems like most of the fiberglass is in the hull and a 35% increase would be a pretty substantial increase in overall boat weight.

2. If the deeper V shape of the M makes the hull structurally stronger, then why do you need to make it 35% thicker?

3. My insurance company was not going to insure my boat for more than I paid for it as this is considered its "natural value" as a used boat. I guess I don't understand how you can get an insurance company to insure a boat for 30K when the bill of sale was for 18K? Regarding engines and trailers, they seem to insure those for very little...and outboards lose their value pretty rapidly.


Mod's Note: Dimitri's comment #3 spawned an insurance discussion, so those posts moved to new thread -fc

[Dave Deem]

Watched an Evinrude infomercial last Sun morning on one of the outdoors channels. Evinrude has an extended warranty offer thru Mar 31, 07.

The offer is under the 7yr warranty banner on the Evinrude home page.
"Take advantage now of the Evinrude E-TEC Outboard offer presented by BRP.
From now until March 31, 2007, you can choose to receive a new 42-inch LG plasma high definition TV (an estimated retail value of $2,500) with the purchase of an Evinrude E-TEC 150-hp or above engine; a total of seven years engine protection; or a discount of $4 per horsepower on every new and unused Evinrude® E-TEC® and Evinrude direct injection outboard engine 40-hp and above, sold in the U.S. and Canada."

Sorry I can't post the URL I haven't earned my stripes yet.

[Derrick]

Albion:

Thanks for the feedback and I'll tell you where I am at right now.

Bill sent me to Oxbo and I recieved quotes from them on a Merc 50, Etec 50 and Suzuki 50. Quotes all came in around the $7500 range for all 3 outboards. As you know they will not install a motor larger than a 50HP.

Bill also told me to shop the boat shows!

A big motor isn't really the driver for me, I am just looking for the best value I can get and want to pick the best motor I can. General conseses from what I read on the board is go a little bigger, but as some recent posts on this thread indicate that anything above a 70HP isn't gonna give you much more for your money.

I went checking prices this past weekend at the Chicago boat show and recieved a quote for $6500 for a DF50 and $7500 for the DF70 (2007 models) from Pearsons Marine at Monticello IN. Only downside is that they have not worked on a Mac before. I have read that Oxbo does a nice installation, but for $1,000 and a dealer closer to where I live makes a little more sense to me. Pearsons also stated that this was pretty much there standard pricing and not a show price.

Also got a quote from Water Werks in Cicereo IL for about $7500 for a Etec 60. Still cheaper than Oxbo.

Still havn't made up my mind yet!

[Matt19020]

Albion answer to your earlier question: I did not purchase a motor out by Bill's because I was very limited on the time I could spend out there. I had every intent in having the motor installed by a dealer locally, but after contacting 4 of them it seemed no one wanted to install the motor unless I purchased a boat from them. I got frustrated and decided to do it myself. The cost is about what I expected I am at $7050. for motor and about $900 for all the extras. This may seem a little high but I got the motor I wanted Guages Tanks Throttle, cables and so on.
I look at it as a custom install exactly the way I want it. It may be a little more work my way but I am confident it will be done properly...

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

I talked with Ray at the Seattle boat show regarding the BWY mounting of the Suzuki 70.

They add no external reinforcements to the transom. No extra plates in the motor well. He wasn't sure what they were doing inside. He guessed they just were using large washers but there might be a plate for the lower bolts.

They also had transom wedges installed on both boats at the show. He said they gained 2 mph when they added the wedge.

They also had one of the boats on the NEW trailer shipping with the 2007's. It is an hybrid steel / aluminum trailer. The main side rails are now a large aluminum channel. Where they join at the tounge they bolt together through a steel tounge assembly. The bow stop, ladder, tougne and coupler are steel. The theory is that that part doesn't get dunked so steel is OK while all the aft stuff is aluminum. I couldn't get in behind part of their display to see if the axle is steel or aluminum.

Anyone have a boat whith this new style trailer?