Propane, Butane or Alcohol

[serford]

I just bought a seaward built in butane stove. Blue water yachts in Seattle are putting these into their new Mac's. I chose butane because it is hotter for cooking and much more like a house gas stove. I'll let you know if I like it once we use it.

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

There is a long history of boats going boom due to improper propane installations.

Yes, it is used safely in almost all larger boats, but they have proper installations. Tanks are always outside in lockers with drains. Lines have remote solenoid shutoffs at the tank, not the stove. Catch basins with drains are installed under the appliance.

A portable camp stove on the galley with a screw on tank is not a proper installation. Adding a hold down kit does not make it any more of a proper installation.

There is no comparison between using propane in a house or RV and using it in a boat. The boat is a sealed container that will trap the spilled gas. In a house or RV it runs harmlessly outside.

It all comes down to picking your risk level and living (or dying) with the consequences.

I have a great little portable butane stove that did a wonderful job in the kitchen during our recent storm and subsequent 4 day power outage. as good as it is you won't find it on my boat.

[Night Sailor]

Most bottled propane also contains some butane because butane works better than propane in appliances in cold weather. Butane is harder to find than propane so most common appliances in the US are jetted for propane.

On my X, my two burner Hillary (a Coleman piezo electric start made for Sears) stove is mounted to my galley's top with extra heavy duty exterior Velcro. It doesn't move unless I want it to, and then it takes quite a bit of effort.

Having used both propane, alcohol, white gas, Coleman fuel and kerosene over the last 60 years, I much prefer propane. When through cooking I just turn burner off, remove the bottle after the flame goes out, put cap back on and place back in stern fuel locker or outside the tent if on shore. Same with the Mr. Heater, after I turn it off for the night, I set it outside.
I've never had surprises or flareups with propane gas. Many of then though with liquid fuels. Burners can get too rich whether pressurized or not. Alcohol is especially bad because the vapors can be ignited and burn with no color to the flame so you don't know you have a fire on your boat.

[ssichler]

A portable camp stove on the galley with a screw on tank is not a proper installation. Adding a hold down kit does not make it any more of a proper installation.

Curious what you are basing your opinion on that this isn't a proper installation at least for the Kenyon Butane stove. According to experts at ABYC it is proper -http://www.abycinc.org/ Do you know something they don't? Can you cite any accidents involving their use in boats?

[Catigale]

Come 4th of July you can toss the empty ones into a bon fire in your back yard. Get your kids and any animals you wish to see again around to the other side of the house. Surprise your neighbors.

A classic Sloop-ism for the ages

Alcohol is much safer than propane from an explosion point of view, but dont think that means you can toss the plastic bottle in the bilge and let it loose. Keep it in the fuel locker like the flammable it is.

I use propane as the storage and handling is so much easier than liquid fuels. Stove is always attended while the bottle is attached.

I believe denatured alcohol is ethanol cut with methanol, but will check this.

On edit

Denatured alcohol is ethanol, isopropyl alcohol (aka 'rubbing alcohol'), methanol, and isopropyl methyl ketone per the MSDS

[James V]

Curious what you are basing your opinion on that this isn't a proper installation

I use this stove and per the instructions you can just set it any where but you should make sure that it does not get knocked off by boat movement.

When I have it lit, I am close by. After use, I let it cool, release the can and put it away or at least lower. I have had this stove knocked off from a bow wave before. It was not lit.

As with any stove, follow instructions. It is always wise not to let guest use the stove and to instruct crew the proper way to use it (as well as knives, head).

[ssichler]

James,
Do you have the suction cups for the stove?
http://tinyurl.com/2d5c88 Well worth the $7.49 at Defender.

[zuma hans 1]

I'm sorry, but I've got to disagree to some extent on the level of danger posed by using propane below decks. After all, nearly every large yacht I've ever boarded has had a propane stove, and some even had propane ovens and heaters, too. And I don't hear of yachts blowing up very often, do you?

Uh, actually, they do, and propane in the bilge is a major cause of yacht fires.

I think we had two in the past 2 years or so at Channel islands.

An explosive, vapory fuel below decks in a sealed, unvented plastic boat? Nein danke.

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

Night sailor,

Hear that little pssst everytime you remove the tank? That is gas being spilled inside your boat. You better hope it manages to make it's way to the sink and run overboard rather than end up in your bilge where any stray spark can ignite it, say when that bilge pump motor kicks on.

The flame of the alcohol sold for stoves is very orange and visible (perhaps because of additives to make it so?). It's not the indy car invisible flame at all. And even if you have spilled alcohol producing vapor you can spark away all day without igniting it. It takes an open flame to light.

Pick up almost any list of boat losses and you will find a propane explosion resulting in loss of the boat. It happens with alarming regularity despite efforts to properly install the equipment.

There really is no debate about which fuel is safer. Un-pressurized alcohol stoves are without a doubt safer in the marine environment. It's up to everyone to simply weigh the safety risks and the performance impacts and make a choice that they are comfortable with. You can mitigate much of the danger of propane and butane by observing safe usage practices, but you can never escape the fact that it is a more dangerous fuel than alcohol.

[kmclemore]

Pick up almost any list of boat losses and you will find a propane explosion resulting in loss of the boat. It happens with alarming regularity despite efforts to properly install the equipment.

I guess for me to be convinced I'd have to see some actual statistics on that one.
Sorry.. maybe I have relatives from Missouri?

There really is no debate about which fuel is safer. Un-pressurized alcohol stoves are without a doubt safer in the marine environment. It's up to everyone to simply weigh the safety risks and the performance impacts and make a choice that they are comfortable with. You can mitigate much of the danger of propane and butane by observing safe usage practices, but you can never escape the fact that it is a more dangerous fuel than alcohol.

I agree that alcohol is safer. But the issue of safety is a continuum, with a wide range of overall risk from zero to deadly. In fact, not owning a boat and sitting quietly in your easy chair is probably safer still (discounting the health risks of an inactive lifestyle, of course). I'm only saying that IMHO the risks of using propane below decks are somewhat overstated, based on my experience, and I'd need some sort of statistical proof to think otherwise.

[Night Sailor]

Duane, gas is in fact escaping every time one installs or removes a bottle of propane. I do not consider this a accumulating danger because I have no closed lockers or bilges on my X, or any other boat I've ever owned. My boats are always ventilated well simply because I want to avoid, and am successful in doing so, condensation, mildew, odors, and accumulating dust or allergens. Second, the amount of gas escaping is very small because I deliberately install or remove as fast as possible. Even over a week's use for cooking or heating, the volume of gas escaped compared to the volume of air is too small to support combustion because it is well mixed. Passive and dynamic air circulation facilitates air mixing in all parts of the boat including the bilges. My X is modified to accomodate good circulation.
All considered, my Dad's advice tells it all. He told me when teaching me how to fill, light and use a white gas Coleman lantern back in the '40s: every time you use any kind of fuel for anything... remember you are playing with fire.

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

There are many in-accessable area's of the X bilge, particularly inside the stringer line in front of the galley. This is why they added the tell tale flooding hole at the base of the steps. People with early boats were ending up with lots of water in the bilges without ever knowing it. It wasn't until the aft berth covers started to float and it spilled out of the galley opening that they had any idea they were sinking.

Dump water around your stove and watch where it flows. The gas is taking the exact same route (At least on a X you have a good shot it will go down the galley drain). Just because you have the boat open and ventilated does not eliminate this. The gas will flow like water right through the air to to the lowest point in the boat. It is heavier than air and will resist being blown around or out of the boat. Just like oil and water it will tend to stay separated and pool while it resists dispersing as your good airflow passes over it. Just having a hatch open to the air above will not remove the gas. It does not evaporate like water.

All those little wisps of gas released 4 times a day over the course of a weeks trip will add up. There's enough volume there to make a nice little poof if it finds a spark.

[opie]

Alcohol is great in our Origo sinigle burner stove that came with the X. No pump. Easy to light. Heats our pot of water quick enough (maybe 10 minutes?) Heats up the whole boat nicely when we spent the night on-board last month at 38 degrees outside. (Did not run it when sleeping.) We placed a clay pot upside down over the flame as suggested elsewhere here. When done, we close the slider and place a heavy rubber-type 6 inch gasket over the wick to prevent evaporation. We love it and see no reason to change. And finally, the Origo flame burns nice and orangey-blue because there is a bit of rust on the upper part of the flame tube. We have NO problem seeing the flame. Enjoy. Opie.

[Rob Roy Macgregor]

I have the alcoholstove, and also a butane burner for m 26X. The butane is a lot faster. Another advantage of the butane is that I can take onto a beach or to picnic tables at a marina.
Now, for you outdoors lovers, I discovered a product which is the best thing ever for boiling a kettle on a beach or anywhere in the outdoors. I can get a kettle from cold to boiling in under 5 minutes every time. It is a Kelly Kettle. I got mine in Canada from Lee Valley Tools.
this is the Kelly Kettle web-site:
http://www.kellykettle.com/

[eric3a]

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