26X sail wardrobe advice please

[Gerald Gordon]

30+knots...
lets see??!!
how about lots of underwear.

[ronacarme]

Have 2001 X with stock main and hank-on working jib, plus the following...

25 sq ft storm jib. Left over from old Venture 17...could be bigger, but we use it often, with a couple of feet of tack pennant to give some slot effect with the main. We use it with reefed and sometimes full main, with CB pennant set for best helm balance. With reefed main it drives boat closer to windward than full or reefed main alone.

200 sq ft nylon drifter. Left over from old 26D. Used often.

350 sq ft stock assym chute. Little used, and then usually without the main. Main and chute together have a very narrow useable range of wind angles, which might be improved by fixing the tack of the chute to a demountable bowsprit, if I could come up with a convenient design for the sprit.

No furler.

Ron

[Divecoz]

Eric is there anything at all you find as positive about your boat?
As you intend not to move it from here to there why did you buy a boat that you find to be so. . . . . . lacking?

[Catigale]

WADR, its not a 30 knot wind boat...too much windage..while there are people on this board who can probably handle a Mac in 30 knots, Im not one of them and I dont think you can convey these skills in text...certainly not just a matter of picking the right cloth.

I did have a chance to take mine out in 25 or so on Lake Ontario last summer and got my b* kicked pretty good. I managed to get reefed main and mostly furled genny up in heavy seas, kept stalling on the big waves, managed to get stuff down and motor back to port

If anything had broken or gone wrong it would have been pretty big trouble..

Worst part of trip was I barfed up some perfectly good blueberry pancakes from that morning..had to eat them again.

[Catigale]

I feel that way about sailing on the Hudson too, Eric....the worst case (not including getting hit by a freighter ... ) is that I dump the boat, swim the 100-200 yards to shore, and walk to the nearest phone to call the insurance company...on the way to Nantucket when you suddenly figure out you have holed your boat in 15 footers this is a different problem.....

[Frank C]

My boat is trailered mast up about 3 miles off SF Bay. An average, pleasant summer afternnon will have a steady breeze at 15 kn with gusts to 22. The 26X can be lots of fun in those conditions ... but just a bit more brisk and the boat can be overwhelmed.

I'll usually have reefed at the dock based on flags and reports. I motor about 3 miles along Alameda Estuary. Winds don't really get strong and steady for 2 more miles toward the central bay, pause at the mouth of the estuary to fill ballast and hoist sail. Round SW point of Yerba Buena & head due north under the Bay Bridge toward Tiburon, we can see the caps & judge if the day will be just brisk, or difficult. Our Bay builds a pretty good chop in steady winds. If it looks mild at that turning point we can shake out the reef.

I have a 135 UK Tapedrive only for winter or on a lake. On this sort of summer sail, using stock sails and plenty of upgrades to rigging controls, I've seen a half-hour long close reach at 7+ knots, kissing 8 knots, winds from 18 to 23 kn, gusting 28. This is just Roger's 26X hull, rudder & CB, but it requires reefed main, full working jib, rigid vang pulled very tight to help flatten the main, CB trimmed aft. The boom will show a down-arc of about 2 inches from 12:1 vang pressure, plus about 4-5 inches on the backstay - these are the only way I've found to really flatten Roger's mainsail (future upgrade ... I think a traveler might be better). Heel will be 30 deg ... if I permit any sail-belly at all, the boat heels more and rounds uncontrollably. However, even if steady on a reach, the boat might refuse to tack, even with backwinded jib. This is due to freeboard, chop, and CB aft. Since it's so difficult to adjust the CB in those conditions, we'd just jibe to starboard instead. That's the sort of day, steady 22 knots, that we can enjoy 4 miles due north, then retreat to stb behind Treasure Is. Odds are the gusts, ~28, will be getting worse & more frequent and chop will be growing. The perfect day for factory sails is steady 12-15, gusts 20, chop 1'. Difficult days are steady 20-25, gusting 35, chop 3'. I won't head north on a difficult day, rather sail the big protected area south of the Bay Bridge.

Leon (member name, delevi) can report on a new suite of Quantum sails on his 26M, same playground, higher winds & chop. This is a flat-bottom, light-weight, high freeboard trailerable hybrid. It can take advantage of steady wind and go faster than you'd expect, but it can't handle heavy air or chop ... could be wrong, but I doubt you'll be happy with it in 25 to 30 knots, steady.
Maybe you should sail that 26X, as is, and judge the beast before investing in new sails.

[Frank C]

Eric wrote: Did you think/where you tempted in putting in another reef line in the standard main sail?
I have both reefs but only used the deep reef one time. I hesitate to forego more than 25% of sail when setting out. Then once in the steeps, too chicken to try to reduce it
(this story reminds me of skiing KT22 moguls at Squaw Valley - in WAY over my head! ).

I guess I haven't fully integrated the "start the engine and flee" option yet!
Told ya' it's my first boat. The outboard is like another PFD, Perfectly Fine for Departure.

Open up the main and backwind the jib and it doesn't tack?! You start going backwards for a while and then it sits there? I would really have thought that if you're doing say 7 knots nicely and round up slowly (like on a cat) you'd get all the way through a tack. I suppose the boat ploughs in the waves and stops?
Yes, yes, no and yes. On 2 pretty rough days it just stalled mid-tack & went into irons, even with backwinding. Guess that was from high winds, high chop and aft CB. Maddmike knows how to adjust the CB, but I'm usually sailing with only 'a half' crew member ... I just haven't been able to adjust everything and maintain momentum. Once it's stalled, I have managed to get it onto the next tack, but that was straight at the GG Bridge, worse chop angles, winds climbing ... then too, the half-crew would be nervous. The easterly jibe into the lee of the island has been the gracious retreat ... when sail speed gets up to 7 knots, it's time to turn around. You might be able to handle the boat when it's gusting 30+ ... but I don't think I would enjoy it, even riding along.

Your southern option is probably more akin to the kind of protected conditions I am describing here so it's really good to know that you do go out in an X .
Maybe .... haven't yet seen a tract where 30 knots doesn't raise chop to stall the Mac's billboard-bow.

And you do that with 1 reef only? And full working jib? Sounds like a lot of sail to me... I have to see it on my boat.
I do have furler, and have tried reducing the jib. It hasn't seemed any benefit. And with the tendency of the main to weathercock the stern, seemed better to keep the jib flying.

Anyone ever produce speed polar curves for various sail conditions on a 26X or am I asking for too much?

[Frank C]

We really need to solve the tacking problem ... your crew fell overboard or you just realized you messed up and are on a collision course with an aircraft carrier
Sad to say, that's why the big outboard~! We enjoy LOTS of commercial shipping, and they move really fast. It IS truly dangerous when the boat's on the edge of control ... hence, I've only enjoyed that long, very fast north tack on three or four days.

I'll report once I try my boat out. Sounds like the typical cat problem. Larger rudder (Bring one rudder slightly up?), center board all the way down ....
Can't wait to hear your results and advice! ... the 26X is truly a blast at 7 knots, wind screaming past the wires, spray across the bow, cacaphony at the transom! Adjusting the CB underway requires close attention. It's heavily loaded sideways against the trunk by leeway. Rudders are like the ballast tank, all or nuthin. Bringing a rudder "slightly up" subjects it to too much torque and could bend or fracture the rudder bracket - that's really BAD news.

... timing the tack and gradual turn to keep momentum may help. Don't want to stop the boat with the rudders though...
Yep - another issue. On the days I described, the rudders were barely able to hold couse - I have enjoyed a fully balanced helm on the perfect days, but never in these conditions, 20+. That means the rudders are always at risk of stalling, then dragging of course. Leon upgraded his 26M for SF Bay w/custom rudders from Ida - wider and deeper. That's probably worse than ideal (drag) for lighter conditions, but I'm pretty sure it's necessary for heavier air (steady at 20+ kn)

[ronacarme]

1. Re your query, my X main still has only the stock single (deep) reef. Adding a second, less deep reef is fairly low priority for me.

2.Re your bay being only a couple feet deep adjacent your house, I coped with a very shallow slip and marina lagoon from 2001-2005 by piggybacking a DIY shoal rudder on the stbd rudder pivot axis. Its draft is about that of the motor. It eliminates "hunting" while motoring under 8 mph in water too thin for stock rudder use. I may someday try somewhat longer (tho shorter than stock) port and stbd piggybacked rudders for thin water sailing with the CB down about at about the same draft.....less than stock rudder length should move the CLR fwd a bit so maybe could hoist a small headsail as well as the main and still balance the helm. Dunno. This is even further down the list....our new marina has sufficient depth for stock rudders down motoring.

Ron

[beene]

Eric

I have been out on MV in 60mph winds, not by choice. My experience with her was that the size of your laundry aside, the freeboard on the Mac is a detriment to its high wind sailing ability. With no sails at all, she heeled 30 degrees when brought abeam. I was amazed at how much it heeled without sails, ballast in. When I was sailing in 30++ kt conditions, I was using full main (because I was single handed and didn’t have the guts to get up on top of the cabin in the winds and reef) and no jib. I have a furling system and others have suggested that I should have let out a bit (face cloth size) of jib, and I agree that the 2 sails together on a sloop really does make a world of difference. When I was out in those conditions, the boom was in the water most of the time. Most uncomfortable. Would never have done it with my family onboard, just a couple of sailors that were more apt to takeover should something ….. happen.

I love my Mac, limitations and all, but a high wind sailor …… downwind maybe, ballast empty, in your shallow bay, what a blast that would be… might even catch a Hobbie… maybe not….

[ronacarme]

Sent you a PM re the shoal rudder.....Ron

[Frank C]

... I love my Mac, limitations and all, but a high wind sailor …… downwind maybe, ballast empty, in your shallow bay, what a blast that would be…

It's clear that Eric is experienced enough to sail the Mac with ballast empty in that shallow bay, but I'm still waiting to see how he goes upwind in those 2-foot depths, sans centerboard~! ... ??

[art]

Curious if anyone has rigged an IMF on their Mac. I plan to next Spring and check stability with and without wind. I suspect a nice option for minimizing use of the foredeck.
Art

[beene]

As for pointing upwind…

My guess would be that the config of the M with the dagger board vs the X and the swing K, Eric could just drop a Bit of board and hold his line better if he had the M. Of coarse if he had the blue one……

[Moe]

I think like many X owners, Eric may find it necessary to ease about 3" of centerboard line, and drop the aft end of the centerboard out of the trunk, to have any kind of directional stability when motoring at less than about 7-8 knots. That's especially true with the huge freeboard in any kind of winds. Doing that pretty much doubles the hull draft, but doesn't make it any deeper than the outboard foot, which adds 15-16 inches below the keel.

Tilting the motor helps the latter some, but as you go up you lose some forward thrust and directional control, with prop walk becoming relatively more significant.


--
Moe