Weighting daggerboard on 26M, did you like it?

[roadysulu]

I was clicking back through the pages and found some reference to adding weight to the daggerboard, but would really like to know if it mattered much, or how much weight it might take to matter much.
I have put much thought towards doing it, but figured I would have to attach a several hundred pound bulb or something to the end of the daggerboard and give up some of my great shallow water exploring.

[baldbaby2000]

The Admiral and I poured 55 lbs of molten lead into ours. I first added a stainless steel pipe throughout the length for added strength. It's a relatively easy thing to do but make sure you have a good mask. If I had to do it again I'd probably have the bottom of the board in a tub of water to keep it cool so it doesn't warp. In my opinion it helps. I've sailed with no ballast in 15 knots of wind. The board still goes up all the way but I added pulleys for more purchase and a larger turning cheek block. It's probably also a good idea to strenghthen the stainless steel hinged piece above the daggerboard well.

BB

[Mark Karagianis]

BB, Can you attach a photo of the pulley system that you used to make raising your centerboard easier? AYA16 (Mike) and I did some work on my Mac last week. We installed a new double pulley at the 90-degree bend, replacing the existing single pulley. The single pulley we located about 2.5 feet along the path-of-travel for the centerboard sheet, so the amount of effort should have been decreased by about 2/3rds. Guess what? With each bend, the effort INCREASED, and now the CB can only be raised by the using the winch with the handle! And it's not the rope.

Any ideas? What happened?

Ask Mike!

Mark

[aya16]

Mikes stumped on that one....maybe the pulleys are to small need to be larger?

Maybe we have it backwards and the double pulley needs to be aft.. The set up we have does make the board twice as hard to pull up.


Or you can have Diane go to the gym and work out so she can pull it up with out the pulleys.

sail slugs should be here the 3rd, I tracked them.

[baldbaby2000]

Mark,

I'll send photos when I get a chance to take some. You didn't happen to use a ratcheting block that's backwards did you?

BB

[Frank C]

I can't picture how you're using a double pulley but you don't need it. In order to double your purchase you needed to add a single pulley, one that's able to move with the load (the "moving pulley" is the secret sauce).

For starters, I'll assume that the factory simply ties the lifting line to the top of the board, leads over a deck pulley, then leads around the slider and back toward the cockpit? Here's a verbal description of how to double that purchase:

• - attach a single pulley to top of the daggerboard;
  - deadend the lifting line at the deck cover plate;
  - from deadend, lead the line down to the pulley on the DB;
  - lead back up to the original pulley on cover plate;
  - and back to the cockpit as Roger does.

Now you'll need to pull ten feet of line to lift the board five feet - but the effort is halved.

[baldbaby2000]

It's probably easier to attach the pulley to the line after it comes out of the board well and through the deck cheek block. Then attach another line to the cleat, run it through the pulley and back to the cleat. Pull on this end to raise the board.

Now imagine a double pulley on that same line going to the daggerboard, and a single pulley with a becket on short line attached to the cleat. Tie a line to the becket, run to the double pulley, back through the single pulley, run again to double pulley and back to the cleat. Pull on this line to raise the board. This is my setup.

BB

[Frank C]

It's probably easier to attach the pulley to the line after it comes out of the board well and through the deck cheek block. Then attach another line to the cleat, run it through the pulley and back to the cleat. Pull on this end to raise the board.

Yielding the targeted 2:1 purchase. This single pulley still needs have ~5 feet of travel potential (from cheek block to cleat) ...

... Now imagine a double pulley on that same line going to the daggerboard, and a single pulley with a becket on short line attached to the cleat. Tie a line to the becket, run to the double pulley, back through the single pulley, run again to double pulley and back to the cleat. Pull on this line to raise the board. This is my setup.

Double pulley & single pulley ... yielding a 3:1 purchase. But ... do either of these rigs provide for a full drop of the DB ... seems they'll be limited to less than a 4-foot drop?

[Mark Karagianis]

Frank - That's it, the pulley has to be able to move. I guess it's been 30 years since I took physics, I forgot that. I can't imagine anyone increasing the weight of their CB without first increasing mechanical advantage.

Frank - I get your method, but BB 2000 I think I need to see a photo. Does someone have a link to a previous thread?

I wand to get this first before I try increasing the weight of my CB. I've gotta fix it anyways, the trailing edge is ragged, we surmise from powering with it down.

Mark

[delevi]

I have a 170 lb keel with a 6:1 purchase used to raise and lower with no winch required. 150 lbs of lead is in the bottom 15" of the board. No bulb. This was a custom job. The lead is bolted to the rest of the DB, which is made of oak. It was then sealed with carbon/epoxy and painted. I couldn't tell how much difference it made since by the time I received it, my sails were badly blown out, inducing excess heel. I recently received my new, high-tech Quantum sails and the difference is phenomenal. It is hard to say at this point, how much of the improvement is attributed to the sails vs. dagger board. That being said, I think that additional ballast can only help. 150 lbs 4.5 feet down induces a lever effect, giving effective ballast increase of approx 300-450 lbs. That's a guess. Perhaps Chip can chime in and give more accurate numbers.

My purchase system consists of a triple block, tied to the lifting line, right behind where it passes the cheek block on the deck; the moving blocks. I have a double block with becket, shackled to an oversized padeye mounted on deck near the starboard winch. The whole deal runs through an spinlock XPS rope clutch, just in front of the winch. I can lift the keel up and down by hand with the 6:1 purchase, but can also use the winch to get a 24:1 if I'm really tired. The only downside is you have to pull about 30 feet of line to haul that babie up.

Roadysulu: To answer your question as to whether it mattered much and is it worth it? It all depends how you measure improvement. If you want to gain every bit of performance out of your boat and reduce the average heel by about 5 degrees (in my estimation) then yes, it's worth it. In my case, The keel, shipping, and hardware set me back about $1200. In addition, I spent numerous hours fussing with the thing and taking it to a boat yard for alterations... it didn't fit right in the beginning. Major hassle. I, myself like to squeeze every bit of performance, but am on the fence if I would have done it all over again. I would caution you, however, not to exceed 200 lbs. You may overload the DB trunk. I contacted MacGregor when doing this and they said I should safely be able to go to 200 lbs but recommended I don't exceed that.

PS. BB, no ballast at 15 knots! Wow! You must not have been sailing upwind. If you were, I'm not sure how you kept the boat from going over, even with your ballasted keel. I have tried some daring stuff with my Mac, but I don't dare sail w/o ballast, even when the wind is light. Conditions can change very quickly.

Leon

[baldbaby2000]

PS. BB, no ballast at 15 knots! Wow! You must not have been sailing upwind. If you were, I'm not sure how you kept the boat from going over, even with your ballasted keel. I have tried some daring stuff with my Mac, but I don't dare sail w/o ballast, even when the wind is light. Conditions can change very quickly.

Actually we were going upwind it was on the leg to the finish. Come to think of it that may have been 15 knots apparent wind which may have been more like 11 knots true wind.

I can't really quantify how much my 55 lbs helps but when I'm on a broad reach and intentionally heel the boat, pulling the board up to about 1/4 board noticably increases the heel indicating that the lever arm of the weight is helping. This test doesn't work going upwind because one needs full board on that point of sail.

Double pulley & single pulley ... yielding a 3:1 purchase. But ... do either of these rigs provide for a full drop of the DB ... seems they'll be limited to less than a 4-foot drop?

The line to the daggerboard doesn't go through the forward pulley, it's just tied to the pulley so the forward pulley moves the same amount as the daggerboard. It sounds like I have a similar system to Leon's except he has more purchase. I'll look for a photo. The Admiral is out of town and has our camera but I may have on archived somewhere.

Daniel

[delevi]

Actually we were going upwind it was on the leg to the finish. Come to think of it that may have been 15 knots apparent wind which may have been more like 11 knots true wind.

15 knts apparent upwind with full sails should heel the boat about 20-25 degrees when ballasted. Daniel, you must have some serious skill to keep your mac from capsize... either that or plenty of rail meet I suppose you could have sailed on the edge of the pinch zone, keeping the boat more upright, but man, one slip and it's a wet mess

[baldbaby2000]

15 knts apparent upwind with full sails should heel the boat about 20-25 degrees when ballasted. Daniel, you must have some serious skill to keep your mac from capsize... either that or plenty of rail meet

Not much for rail meat. Just me and the wife. We were heeled a bit but it was a nice steady wind as I recall so it was controllable. I remember it because we usually have the ballast in and I was keeping an eye on the anemometer out of curiousity. Have you sailed with no ballast? I would think with your keel you could do pretty good. I'm curious about your new sails. Are you able to flatten the main pretty well and that's why your heel is reduced?

Daniel

[delevi]

Have you sailed with no ballast? I would think with your keel you could do pretty good.

No, I haven't and don't think I ever will. I have no problem motoring w/o ballast but before the sails ever go up, even in the lightest air, I always fill up.

I'm curious about your new sails. Are you able to flatten the main pretty well and that's why your heel is reduced?

The new sails are fantastic. The jib came out perfect, but they messed up on the main. They installed the battens to be at 45 degrees to the boom, rather than parallel. Quite a chore to flake and impossible to have the Dutchman system installed which I ordered. They are making a new mainsail for me which should be ready in about a month. In the meantime, they gave me the one they messed up on to use. So far, I had two days to use the new sails. The first day, there was virtually no wind. The second day, I got a nice afternoon breeze 15-18 knts true. I was sailing upwind and got it quite flat, but can be even flatter... read on. I was heeling about 20-25 degrees with full sails, with speed ranging from 6 to 8.7 mph. The new sail is loose-footed, which by the way is fantastic for reaches, runs, and light air and can be flattened every bit as much as a rope-foot sail. I upgraded my outhaul to a 4:1 purchase. I am also having the foot made 2 inches shorter and the leech 9 inches shorter.. they made the leech too long, so the boom hits the lifelines when tacking. With the foot at its current length, I can get the clew slug so far back that the outhaul line creates a downward pull rather than backwards. Shortening the foot will solve this problem and allow the sail to get even flatter. I also have a cunningham now, with a 3:1 purchase, jam cleat on the exit block, and line long enough to reach to the cockpit. Since I have the opportunity to make changes due the screwup, I figure I would fine tune everything. I am getting the two top battens full. Currently, I just have one full. The Dutchman should be a terrific addition, making flaking a snap, but more importantly, when combined with single line reefing, the whole process can be done from the cockpit and no need to tie off the excess sail, since it flakes itself neatly on the boom and stays in place. Ahhh. Writing this is making me want to go sailing.

Leon

[baldbaby2000]

The second day, I got a nice afternoon breeze 15-18 knts true. I was sailing upwind and got it quite flat, but can be even flatter... read on. I was heeling about 20-25 degrees with full sails, with speed ranging from 6 to 8.7 mph.

I'd say that's quite amazing performance. How does the jib differ from the standard jib? Please keep us updated on the performance improvements you see.

Daniel