X boat flips upside down

[pokerrick1]

Excuse me but I am a "fraidy cat" sailor and my ballast tanks are ALWAYS FULL regardless of whether sailing or under power. Loss of 1 knot is not worth loss of ANY stability!!!:macm:

[pokerrick1]

AND - - - I'm sorry but I don't understand why one would empty the ballast before getting to a launch ramp to retrieve onto a trailer? It only takes 5 minutes to empty once it's back on the trailer!

[Bill at BOATS 4 SAIL]

AND - - - if you tell people, that ask where all the water is coming from, that you are emptying your holding tank, time seems to go by even faster.

[pokerrick1]

Very good Bill - -I'll do that next time!!!

[ALX357]

reasons to empty ballast tank before retrieval on trailer.....

boat sits higher so trailer does not have to be as far underwater, vehicle wheels not underwater.

boat is easier to tow out at busy ramp for vehicle with 200 or less horsepower. you can pull up a bit at a time, draining ballast a bit at a time to remedy this, but usually ramps are too busy to afford the extra time of progressively draining balllast while pulling out on ramp.

Boat instructions say drain it before loading boat on trailer, because the stock trailer (and tires) are not rated for the extra 1400 pounds of water weight.

[tw]

Haven't been able to re-access this group until today.

I always read with amazement to posts that categorically state that the MacGregor is, without a doubt, a very safe boat without water ballast. This is in lieu of multiple documented events of MacGregors that have capsized with an empty water ballast. In some cases with the loss of life.

Hey, if facts can't show the way, what else?

I won't be posting on this subject any longer.

[kmclemore]

Haven't been able to re-access this group until today.

I always read with amazement to posts that categorically state that the MacGregor is, without a doubt, a very safe boat without water ballast. This is in lieu of multiple documented events of MacGregors that have capsized with an empty water ballast. In some cases with the loss of life.

Hey, if facts can't show the way, what else?

I won't be posting on this subject any longer.

Right. Just as I thought... our hero was unable to post references to all those "multiple documented events".... so he quit with mock indignation.

The fact is that the Mac is a pretty stable boat. It only becomes unstable, just like many other boats, when grossly mis-handled and overloaded. I stand by my assertion that I have yet to have any unstable moments in my ownership, and I've also yet to hear anyone on this board say their's went 'turtle', even when their owners might have been careless or made serious errors. And nobody's died here either.

[50/50]

I have been reading this post with great interest. We have had our Mac now for about a month an in that time have travelled about 150 miles. All of this on Loch Ness and the caledonian canal. Loch Ness can be very rough, 4'+ and very close together.
I have just returned from a trip up and down the Loch. On Saturday we had left with what I thought was a full ballast tank. ( I had opened the transom valve and then vented until i could feel that the tank was full and forgotton to close the valve!) We then encountered 5' waves very close together and the boat was pounding quite frightening for a novice sailor and crew. It was about this time that I'd felt I'd made the wrong choice of boat.

[Chip Hindes]

Boat instructions say drain it before loading boat on trailer,

I don't have the instructions in front of me, but I'm pretty sure they say not to tow the boat with the ballast in. That's somewhat different than not pulling it a few feet up the ramp with ballast in.

Otherwise, those with puny motors or none at all (which are both touted as possibilities in the literature) would never be able to pull their boats out of the water.

In response to the ramp etiquette question, from the time I pick up my trailer in the parking lot, to partially pulling the boat, stopping to let the ballast drain, then clearing the ramp for the next guy, singlehanded I can beat about 75% of the powerboaters I've seen. With help on the lines, I can beat 90% of them. Plan your exit ahead for a minimum of lost motion and practice when nobody's there. If the ramp is wide enough, I have no problem pulling slightly to one side to drain the ballast, leaving enough room for a competent driver (stress the competent part) to back the trailer down the ramp without interference.

Sorry, I'm sure I'll hurt some feelings when I say if your tow vehicle can't pull the boat a few feet up the ramp with ballast in, you need either a bigger tow vehicle or a shallower ramp. And yes I've added a tandem axle to my otherwise stock X trailer, but I did it this way for four years before upgrading either the tow vehicle or the trailer, and to me it's way preferable to firing the motor early and running around at high speed to empty ballast on the water.

For those who prefer to empty on the water, fine, do it, no argument. For others, completely optional.

[Catigale]

The one caveat I'll add to your note, Chip, is I think it is considered rude to wet down the ramp on the 'normally dry' part with any kind of water...for those with bigger boats that need traction a wet ramp can make their retrieval a lot more difficult

I try to dump where it wont wet the ramp where possible.

Ive never had trouble pulling my ballasted and loaded out with my puny 200 HP motor and up and away from the ramp.

I would not want to hold a ramp up for 5 minutes in many places I launch.

[Catigale]

I don't see how operating w/o ballast with 4 people or less makes you any less safe than a motor boat

IMHO the unballasted Mac has a much higher COG than most powerboats in this size range, which makes it more unstable.

That being said, as stated above, the boat can be operated safely in either mode by a prudent operator.

[Terry]

The one caveat I'll add to your note, Chip, is I think it is considered rude to wet down the ramp on the 'normally dry' part with any kind of water...for those with bigger boats that need traction a wet ramp can make their retrieval a lot more difficult.

For those who can empty ahead that may be a good consideration. I always use 4 wheel drive just because of wet ramps. I have watched (and laughed underneath) from the sidelines while big powerful trucks spin their back wheels trying to pull a relatively lighter powerboat up the ramp, (some without the boat, just the trailer) I even jumped on the back bumper once to help with traction but the park Warden finally had to hook a chain to the guy's front bumper and help pull him out. When my turn came I could just tell by the looks on peoples faces that they had their doubts that my little (by comparison) Chevy Trailblazer would pull that beheamoth of a MacGregor out. Well, you should see the looks I get when I easily pull it out - ballast tank full and empty it right there, it emptys in seconds right at the bottom of the ramp, comes out like a fire hose at max pressure. With tides the ramp is always wet, you need 4 wheel drive.

As far as motoring without ballast, I do it when there is no wind, because without wind there are no waves and therefore not as much danger. Usually it is only my wife and I so excess weight aloft is not a problem and I would likely motor unballasted with up to 500 lbs of crew after which I would add ballast. The M does come with 300 lbs of permanent ballast right at the daggerboard so that helps keep COG low, I also consider the engine to be ballast and all the food, water, gear, supplies & batteries to be ballast also. As long as conditions allow I have no problem going without ballast, but as soon as those waves start to kick up I immediately stop & fill the ballast. One time I went out to empty the balllast so that I could pull the boat over on its' side at my slip using the jib halyard like it shows in the brochure. (I wanted to try cleaning the hull like this). Well it is not as easy as they make it look, in fact I only got it over 30 degrees and then cleated it off. Anyway I was out there alone trying to empty my ballast at WOT and the further out I got the rougher it was, waves kept getting bigger. I was plenty nervous as the waves kept me bouncing around and listing over and I felt I had put myself in a dangerous situation so I did a wide turn and kept my speed up to keep emtying and headed back where it was not so choppy and finally got her empty but not without a blood stream pumped with adrenaline. The Mac is very vulnerable when emptying so I prefer to do it at the ramp when trailering.
PS I suppose Frank C has not missed the cleaning effort I mentioned, so yes I still perservere and look for other ways to get the crap off the bottom, I even went in with my shorty wet suit and scrub brush in hand and scrubbed it. It was cool at first dunk but not so bad once in for a minute. I can't stand having that stuff keep growing down there so I let my obsessiveness get the better of me. Perhaps in a couple years when I retire and have the boat wet slipped longer I will get the bottom paint with epoxy undercoat.

[Frank C]

1) ... The M does come with 300 lbs of permanent ballast right at the daggerboard so that helps keep COG low ...

2) As long as conditions allow I have no problem going without ballast, but as soon as those waves start to kick up I immediately stop & fill the ballast.

3) ... One time I went out to empty the balllast so that I could pull the boat over on its' side at my slip using the jib halyard like it shows in the brochure. (I wanted to try cleaning the hull like this).

4) ... I even went in with my shorty wet suit and scrub brush in hand and scrubbed it. It was cool at first dunk but not so bad once in for a minute. I can't stand having that stuff

5) ... so I let my obsessiveness get the better of me.

1) True enough, 300 lbs. of permanent ballast, but remember also the extra weight of that rotating mast. Just a SWAG, betting the inate stability of X & M are pretty close to the same.

2) The heaviest chop is when I most prefer MT-ballast motoring. Over time you'll learn to appreciate the reliable "motorboat handling" of your M, even with empty ballast.

3) Duly noted!

4) Duly noted!

5) No question!

[pokerrick1]

You mean there ARE some tow vehicles for boats WITHOUT 4 wheel drive??? NO??? I do move to the center to empty the ballast if there are others waiting - - - but I've never heard that it's rude to get the ramp wet? This is a water activity after all! And it IS a pretty quick operation to empty. I'm not concerned that the trailer is not rated for the extra weight for a few feet up the ramp - - -I'm not going any DISTANCE with the extra weight.

[ssichler]

2) The heaviest chop is when I most prefer MT-ballast motoring. Over time you'll learn to appreciate the reliable "motorboat handling" of your M, even with empty ballast.

I would agree with you when motoring over 10 knots the boat handles much better with empty (MT?) ballast in chop. It's also much drier.

Just curious - those of you who motor with empty ballast at what point do you feel it is necessary to add ballast?