How much can you winch the halyard?

[delevi]

No, it didn't help. I don't think the bolt rope was the problem. My sails are badly blown out. That's the bottom line. I'm in the process of ordering some UK Tapedrive sails. Just working out the details and pricing and trying to see if I need to wait until November to get a better price or if the sail loft will sell to me now for the price I requested.

[RandyMoon]

Thanks. It still bothers me that I have to lean into the winch pretty hard to get it tight. I use Sailkote, loosen the vang, the boom kicker lifts the boom, I loosen the outhaul, and it is still difficult to get the sail up. My wife cannot get it tight with the winch. There is absolutely nothing that binds the luff.

This weekend I am going to add a cunningham grommet.

[delevi]

Randy,

I don't think the halyard should require any winching. Maybe your bolt rope has shrunk. You really don't need it with the slugs, so you can just cut it loose near the foot attachment and just let it ride in the sleeve. That's what I did and never didi sew it back in. After doing that, I could hoist the sail much higher. Unfortunately, it didn't solve my problem, but may be a solution for you. May be worth a shot. I think winching the halyard hard may overstretch the luff. Of course, I may not be an authority on this since my sails are toast, but I think this is most likely from sailing in the 4 oz sails in 20+ knts for 40-50 days/year.

good luck
Leon

[RandyMoon]

Thanks Leon. Not much to loose in trying it. Last weekend, I had to crank so hard that the winch was clicking/slipping like a safety release.

[They Theirs]

The halyard requires enough tension to overcome the boltrope or slides potential binding for a full hoist. Many sails are ruined from over tensioning the luff, stretching the Dacron. Bending the sails to full hoist and using the halyard to preserve the correct luff tension for the point of sail. Knowing the boltrope shrinks and youre not able to tension the luff, releasing the boltrope stitching, reducing draft as the luff is extended, and flattening the mainsail. This will not remove the excessive draft created sailing in high winds (blown out sail) with the draft to deep and too far aft when the luff is fully tensioned. If the sail is not too far gone, a re-cut may be possible, but I would rather apply these dollars toward the purchase a new inexpensive OEM sail, offered through Mac dealers, for general sailing, and or make an investment in a better shaped, custom made sail, for performance or cruising.

[RandyMoon]

They Theirs.... the sail is two seasons old and has acted like that from day one. It is definately not blown out, it is just a bear to get the luff tight without leaning hard into the winch with the handle. So much so that you hope the whole rig doesn't come raining down on top of your head.

If you just lean into it with the winch and your weight, the bottom two or three areas between the slugs are very loose and scalloped. We are talking several feet of lower luff loose, like maybe the higher slugs are binding somehow. When I drop the sail, it drops down real easily.

I watch other sailboats lining up into the wind and hoisting sails and they seem to zip right up.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

[Frank C]

Randy, sounds as if your boltrope is too short, so I think you'll solve the problem once it is unstitched. But then be very cautious with that winch, since you could easily over-stretch the luff. Roger recommends sweating the halyard to raise the main ... a far cry from the multiplier provided by that winch.

Winch torque to overcome friction in the mast track is an extreme measure ... somethin's destined to break (as you inferred)! I'd worry about pulling the halyard block right out of the mast. Given your preparatory steps with vang, outhaul, heading into the wind, mainsheet loose ... it simply shouldn't be that hard. IMO, try that bolt rope.

[They Theirs]

I might check the size of your slugs, (assuming they may be small or too large) and follow up with rag tied to a messenger pulled up the mast boltrope slot, if it is stepped. Lubricate the slugs and mast track lightly, if that doesnt help, you need to gently stretch the luff between two solid mounts while holding out the clew out to check the mainsail for a sound shape. If the luff is puckered, and youre not able to pull the full hoist, check for a shrunken boltrope. (Measure Full Hoist from Head to Clew on the mainsail, not by the length of the mast track.)

Im not a supporter of lines led aft with turning blocks mounted on the deck. (They increase the downward pressure, inhibiting the mast rotation, on the already loaded frictional bearing pivot of the M rotating Mast) You should be able to stand at the mast and sweat up the main to full hoist. Two blocked at the top without hooking the tack to show a clean hoist? If the sail is stretched/distorted or damaged, it may be time for some new canvas.

Sails by Boat (Click Here)

INSTALLING SAIL SLUGS

[RandyMoon]

OK, I'll snip it this weekend and report back. I have tried everything but the boltrope. It has been a mystery to me after eliminating all of the obvious possible causes.

Thanks very much for the advice.

[Dimitri-2000X-Tampa]

I just got my mainsail patched by a sailmaker, first thing he noticed was the shrunken bolt rope. He said the bolt rope manufacturers don't admit to "shrinkage" but instead say something about the braid settling or some silly stuff like that. He said ultimately it had shrunk and he could get the sail several inches taller. So, I let him snip it but when I picked it up, he said he could only get 3-4 inches out of it because the sail slug grommets were holding the rope somewhat stationary.

Regardless, I was able to get all my wrinkles out now which I wasn't able to do before so the sail should be having better performance now.

[They Theirs]

A sail cut flat to perform better on the wind, can be too flat for sailing off the wind. The Cunningham ring released allows a sail cut full hoist and somewhat full to be carefully crafted for deeper draft down wind. The Cunningham tackle is applied to draw the draft foreword with the outhaul and flattening ring applied to flatten the sail when sailing on the wind. A well made sail will provide many control options to benefit the sailing in your area. Take care to demand working performance in all your controls, and be sure it is written in your contract with the sail maker and loft of choice. Releasing the stitching and other sewn restrictions to allow the mainsail luff to extend, maybe not fully, but enough to benefit full hoist and smoothing the luff. Dont forget to re-stitch, by hand if necessary, the boltrope and you might clamp the rope as you lengthen the luff over the rope, incrementally, to lengthen the luff in shaping the sail. Dont use the winch to overstretch the released boltrope. Without a Cunningham Tackle youre ability to tension the luff and draw the draft foreword will be the halyard.

Picture of the Cunningham set with a line

Picture of the Non-set Cunningham

Double ended Cunningham, or half for single

[Chip Hindes]

Roger recommends sweating the halyard to raise the main ... a far cry from the multiplier provided by that winch.

I believe Roger recommends the truckers' hitch, which gives 2:1. You might be surprised at the advantage you can get from sweating; easily 4 or 5:1 total advantage; just about what you get from the winch.

[RandyMoon]

OK, I'll snip it this weekend and report back. I have tried everything but the boltrope. It has been a mystery to me after eliminating all of the obvious possible causes.

I went to the marina this morning to try to resolve the inability to hoist the sail and get a tight luff without using a winch and handle.

First I dropped all of the slugs out of the mast and throughly sprayed each one with Liquid Wrench with PTFE (I have used SailKote in the past). I made a "device" that fits on the little red spray tube that ran within the slot and sprayed the inside of the mast channel. So at this point in the story, the whole slug slide thing is lubed.

Rather then use the halyard to the cockpit arrangement, I stood next to the mast and ran the sail up and down. It goes up smooth as silk until the last 12" and it immediately tightens up. Using my 230 pounds on the winch, I could get it up another 6". And it sticks tight at that point. The wench handle will get it up a tad more. So from the deck it looks like the headboard is about as far as it has room to go. But when you look at the sail down towards the boom, it looks like there should be another 12" slack that needs to be taken up.

I wish I had taken my camera to put this in perspective.

So to me the problems would be:

1) Some physical problem in the channel near the top of the mast
2) Halyard block at the masthead is pulling at an angle and is not pulling straight up
3) The frickin luff is 12" too long

The boltrope connection at the bottom does not appear to be the problem because it is far from even being engaged (I did cut the stiches while I was at it). I used a pole to try to push the reachable slugs along the luff and they were loose as a goose.

This looks like a problem that will need to wait until winter when I can get the boat in a place that I can take the mast down. Like I said, it goes up very easy until it gets to the last 12". Even when it is up as tight as you can get it, it is still real easy to get the sail to drop. The binding seems to be only on the way up, not down.

Weird.

[They Theirs]

RandyMoon
Attach the head of the sail to the main halyard, you have cleaned the track and lubed the slugs/slides. Pull the sail up the track without securing the tack or foot of the sail to the boom, your sail should go all the way up, as there is nothing to prevent the head-board from two-blocking with the block at the top. You could drop the mast and manually slide the sail up the track with some care. Check your halyard to be sure the attachment to the headboard is minimal, no long loops or knots preventing full hoist.

[RandyMoon]

They Theirs... good idea. I'll undo the foot and see what happens. Thanks