I stumbled onto this link and maybe some folks with Mac26 would like to know E-Tec outboards can be ordered with this nozzle lower unit instead of a regular prop. this is the military version of the Etec40,50,60.
http://www.smalloutboards.com/etec405060.htm
Different way to power with Etec
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Hamin' X
- Site Admin
- Posts: 3466
- Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2005 6:02 pm
- Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
- Location: Hermiston, OR-----------2001 26X DF-50 Suz---------------(Now Sold)
- Contact:
I have looked into "Jet Drive" lower units in the past. Most of the boats on the Snake River up here use them. They are available for a number of different makes from different suppliers. In talking with some of the local river boat operators however, I found out that there is about a 20% power penalty in using them. OK if you want to strap on a 65 HP outboard to get the same performance as a 50. Problem is the extra weight on a Mac. They don't care, they just add a bigger motor or put two of them on the transom.
Rich---Hamin' X---N7ZH
Rich---Hamin' X---N7ZH
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kmclemore
- Site Admin
- Posts: 6295
- Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2004 9:24 am
- Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
- Location: Ambler, PA -- MACX2018A898 w/ Suzuki DF60AV -- 78 BW Harpoon 4.6 -- 2018 Tahoe 550TF w/ 150 Merc
Interesting reading:
Here's their FAQ:
I found the company that makes them... their warranty on new units is amazing - includes repair the unit is damaged, any factory defects or even regular tuneups and adjustments for a full 5 years!A pump-jet or water jet is a marine propulsion system that creates a jet of water for impulse. The mechanical arrangement may be a ducted propeller with nozzle, or a centrifugal pump and nozzle.
Pump jets have some advantages over bare propellers for certain applications, usually related to requirements for high-speed or shallow-draft operations. These include:
-- Increasing the speed for the onset of cavitation, due to the raised internal dynamic pressure,
-- High power density (with respect to volume) of both the propulsor and the prime mover (since a smaller, higher-speed unit can be used),
-- Protection of the rotating element and making operation safer around swimmers,
-- Improved shallow-water operations, since only the inlet needs to be submerged,
-- Increased maneuverability, by adding a steerable nozzle to create vectored thrust, and
-- Ultra-quiet designs for submarines; for example the Trafalgar class.
In these situations, the benefits outweigh the somewhat reduced efficiency (especially marked at low forward speeds) caused by the increased wetted surface and higher rotational speeds than an open propeller.
Here's their FAQ:
And there's even a place where you can buy them refurbished (probably ex-military?). Heck the prices are right...Frequently Asked Questions
1. What horsepower does the PUMP JET come in?
25 / 30 / 40 /50 / 55 / 60 Johnson & Evinrude outboards.
2. Will the PUMP JET fit my existing motor?
Yes, if you have a relatively new less than 15 year old
Johnson/Evinrude 25 / 30 / 40 / 50 / 55 / 60 outboard. Identify your motor upon ordering.
3. Is the PUMP JET a retrofit?
The product will adapt to existing Johnson/Evinrude models in the above horsepowers.
4. How does the PUMP JET affect performance?
Performance includes a load carrying advantage of about 25%, and a high-speed reduction of about 3% to 10%.
5. Is the PUMP JET like a prop guard?
No! The propeller is replaced with a rotor, housed within a specially designed pump.
6. Is the PUMP JET product like a jet ski?
No! The product is a true forward/neutral/reverse jet with excellent low speed maneuvering and no sacrifice of power.
7. Do insurance companies know about the PUMP JET?
Ask your carrier.
8. Is there a Warranty offered on the PUMP JET?
Yes! The Pump Jet has a Three Tier Warranty for five years, which provides for accidental damage, drive train not included.
2001 Commercial Johnson 55 HP DURA-Jet 20" Rope start $ 2299.60 (This is a manual start tiller steer engine.)
W/On- Electric Start and charging kit $ 2704.95 Includes: On engine push button start, tilt tube steering kit, remote control kit. (all add on components are new kits from Bombardier)
w/ Electric remote starting $ 2904.95 Includes: On engine push button start, tilt tube steering kit, remote control kit. (all add on components are new kits from Bombardier)
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Chip Hindes
- Admiral
- Posts: 2166
- Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 6:13 am
- Location: West Sand Lake, NY '01X, "Nextboat" 50HP Tohatsu
I would be careful about dropping any $$ into one of these without a complete investigation of the cost/benefit.
Here's my first question: Mechanically, I don't see why the pump jet would be any different than a standard prop, in that the pump impeller must be matched to the boat. A pump jet designed for a 40mph, 55HP Zodiac inflatable which might be pushing 1500 lbs loaded can't possibly be right for a 17mph, 55HP, 5000 lb Mac.
Here's another just oput of curiusity: The pictures appear to show a nacelle like housing around the prop hub exit. Doesn't the Evinrude have through hub exhaust? Where's the exhaust going?
Here's my first question: Mechanically, I don't see why the pump jet would be any different than a standard prop, in that the pump impeller must be matched to the boat. A pump jet designed for a 40mph, 55HP Zodiac inflatable which might be pushing 1500 lbs loaded can't possibly be right for a 17mph, 55HP, 5000 lb Mac.
Here's another just oput of curiusity: The pictures appear to show a nacelle like housing around the prop hub exit. Doesn't the Evinrude have through hub exhaust? Where's the exhaust going?
The Exhaust seems to be above the pump
The Exhaust seems to be above the pump pointed into the pump discharge going by the two tube like structures in one of the pictures. But, if you look at the top level web page the pump is a diffrent style than the one on the how it works details page, I think there is a very good chance that the newer pump can accomodate through the prop exhaust, and the two tubes might be for exhaust while running in reverse.
..
I totally agree that there is a significant possibility that the pitch is wrong for a Mac26, and there is no way to change it. But is is supposed to be thrusty, tug boats use a similar nozzle called a Kort Nozzle for better thrust and directional control. The pitch of the pump impeller looks low compared to a prop, but that's apples and oranges.
..
I think they look neat and was interested that they are available new, not just as surplus.
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The pump looks like it could take a real beating and keep on going, the impeller looked very thick. I think the pump could go all day in stumpy water without breaking a blade. I wonder what would happen if it sucked up a rock? I wonder how much it weighs?
..
I totally agree that there is a significant possibility that the pitch is wrong for a Mac26, and there is no way to change it. But is is supposed to be thrusty, tug boats use a similar nozzle called a Kort Nozzle for better thrust and directional control. The pitch of the pump impeller looks low compared to a prop, but that's apples and oranges.
..
I think they look neat and was interested that they are available new, not just as surplus.
..
The pump looks like it could take a real beating and keep on going, the impeller looked very thick. I think the pump could go all day in stumpy water without breaking a blade. I wonder what would happen if it sucked up a rock? I wonder how much it weighs?
Last edited by Robert on Mon Mar 13, 2006 6:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Bobby T.-26X #4767
- Captain
- Posts: 906
- Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 10:48 am
- Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
- Location: Oceanside Harbor, CA
if you added this animal to your outboard, you would definitely need a 90hp to get you to 16-17mph due to the performance loss.
(although they don't make one for a 90hp).
but, if you lived and played on a river, it's probably the way to go.
bottom line, it's not for a Mac.
Bob T.
"DaBob"
'02X w/ '04 90 TLDI
(although they don't make one for a 90hp).
but, if you lived and played on a river, it's probably the way to go.
bottom line, it's not for a Mac.
Bob T.
"DaBob"
'02X w/ '04 90 TLDI
I thought I'd share my email string with a dealer:
I asked:
I know it is usually a trial and error thing to match a normal prop to the boat/engine combination. I know I went through several props before I got a good combination the last time I did it. How does that work with a durajet? It would seem to be a much more complicated process...
They responded:
The Durajet has one rotor and it is system matched with the jet housing. Because it is a pump and a jet, the engine RPM's are determined by how much water is flowing throught the pump. The water flow in turn loads the engine to produce the correct RPM for that engine. The beautifull thing is that there are no pitch or diameter sizes to choose from.
The hard thing to undertand about this system is that the principles that you are familiar with (how a prop works), is totally different from the DuraJet. This is vectored thrust like a jet engine.
A propeller is very inefficeint in comparision.
Our jet has F-N-R, unlike the standard jet and in this case, 60 HP in results in 60 HP at the output (propshaft).
When I get to my office on Monday, I'll send you some more information.
In the mean time, the price is as follows.
E60DPL (standard) $ 6495.00
E60DPL (DuraJet) $ 6595.00
This is special offer, the DuraJet is a $ 1595.00 option.
What kind of boat are you considering?
Where are you going to use it?
What type of boating?
Thanks,
Will Gross
Premier Marine, Inc.
I responded:
I have a 26' sailboat. It's not your typical sailboat, in that it can actually plane. I have a 40hp ETEC on it now and am looking to get a bit more power, as with the 40hp I'm just a bit under-powered.
Right now, I'm stuck on inland lakes, but will eventually get it down to the Gulf.
It is a sailboat, but even with the 40hp, I pull tubes and knee boards at about 16mph. With the 60hp, I'm looking to pull skiers. I know someone with a 50hp ETEC on my same boat that gets ~22 mph. So, as for the type of boating: A little basic cruising at about ~2-3k RPM (mainly under sail when cruising), with a good bit of WOT 'fun-for-the-kids' stuff.
Is it a Macgregor 26? Very familiar with the design and workings.
The DuraJet will give users 20-25% more thrust (due to vectored thrust). So an operator with a 40 will get the thrust of a 50 HP. The speeds will be the same. In other words, the pump efficiency has the ability to perform more work than a propeller unit of the same HP.
If you went with a 60 etec with a DuraJet you may be able to pick up 3-5 MPH, and carry loads of a 75 HP. Is this enough to justify the swap??
One thing to note, the DuraJet system works very well with heavy, inefficient hull. I have a good deal of experience with Durajets on pontoon boats and heavy work skiffs.
How many hours on your engine? Would you consider trading it for the 60?
Bill,
Yes, it is a Mac26M.
Yes, I am looking to trade it in. I don't have an hour meter, but its on a sailboat... I've only gone through about one tank of oil. While I have only used the XD-100 oil in it, I asked the dealer that installed it to program it for any oil, just in case I couldn't find the good stuff... So, relatively few hours on a 2005 model. Although, I did bust the skeg off in a trailering incident. It didn't hit anything in the water. It occured while I was backing up the trailer... I know that will impact (no pun intended) the trade in value. But, the boat is in Missouri and you're in FL, so I didn't think you'd be interested in that sort of thing... What would you estimate its value at? Obviously, shipping it to you would be an issue...
Like I said before, I get between 15-17 mph with the ballast tank empty, now with the 40hp. This appears to be similar performance as other Mac26 owners get with 50hp 4-strokes. So, going to a straight 60hp ETEC, I was hoping to see numbers near what are being reported for 70hp 4-strokes. With what you say about the durajet, I might get even better numbers. If what you're saying is true, then I ought to get real close to 30mph. Which would be WELL worth it... Its just a matter of convincing the wife...
The Mac26M is an elegant design, I considered buying one due to its versitility. It's a great boat, very clever blalast system!!!
Let me clear up on thing first. Generally the DuraJet is NOT FASTER than a prop unit on light fast hulls. Even though there is 20-25% more thrust generated, this does not mean the boat will go faster. This is due to the increased surface area of the rotor housing on the jet. You will be able to get up on a plane easier, and maintain a plane at lower RPMS with less HP. The planning speed might be a few MPH slower than the prop unit.
Explain to your wife that people buy the DuraJet for safety. Accidents happen to the most expereince boaters. Beyond safety there are some terrific benefits.
Some performance examples on boats I have owned or recently tested with DuraJets: This may be a little revealing to you. All figures (radar) in MPH
Vessel Prop Unit DuraJet Increase time on plane w/DJ
20' Starcraft pontoon 50 etec 18.5 19.3 + 2.21 sec
13' Dory skiff 30 HP Johnson 24.5 23.7 + 3.01 sec
14' Zodiac F470 55 HP Johnson 29.5 28.3 + 2.44 Sec
18' Sea Ark Alum skiff 60 etec 33.4 34.5 + 1.75 Sec
21' Fiesta Pontoon 60 etec 21.2 21.8 + 1.90 Sec
The heavier the boat (Less efficient hull) the better the DuraJewt does (in speed and planning).This is because of the vectored thrust. Propellers ventilate and cavitate when you wind them up. A propeller takes time to grab, the jet takes less.
I'm not afraid of the shipping or damaged skeg. We could ship you the new engine and you could have your technician put the engine in the box and ship it back to us. One good thing is the swap would not take long for your technician to perform.
Could you send us a zip code and a few pictures of the engine. Need to see the damage, appearance of engine and get you a shipping cost (both ways) before we can go ahead.
Thanks,
Bill
I asked:
I know it is usually a trial and error thing to match a normal prop to the boat/engine combination. I know I went through several props before I got a good combination the last time I did it. How does that work with a durajet? It would seem to be a much more complicated process...
They responded:
The Durajet has one rotor and it is system matched with the jet housing. Because it is a pump and a jet, the engine RPM's are determined by how much water is flowing throught the pump. The water flow in turn loads the engine to produce the correct RPM for that engine. The beautifull thing is that there are no pitch or diameter sizes to choose from.
The hard thing to undertand about this system is that the principles that you are familiar with (how a prop works), is totally different from the DuraJet. This is vectored thrust like a jet engine.
A propeller is very inefficeint in comparision.
Our jet has F-N-R, unlike the standard jet and in this case, 60 HP in results in 60 HP at the output (propshaft).
When I get to my office on Monday, I'll send you some more information.
In the mean time, the price is as follows.
E60DPL (standard) $ 6495.00
E60DPL (DuraJet) $ 6595.00
This is special offer, the DuraJet is a $ 1595.00 option.
What kind of boat are you considering?
Where are you going to use it?
What type of boating?
Thanks,
Will Gross
Premier Marine, Inc.
I responded:
I have a 26' sailboat. It's not your typical sailboat, in that it can actually plane. I have a 40hp ETEC on it now and am looking to get a bit more power, as with the 40hp I'm just a bit under-powered.
Right now, I'm stuck on inland lakes, but will eventually get it down to the Gulf.
It is a sailboat, but even with the 40hp, I pull tubes and knee boards at about 16mph. With the 60hp, I'm looking to pull skiers. I know someone with a 50hp ETEC on my same boat that gets ~22 mph. So, as for the type of boating: A little basic cruising at about ~2-3k RPM (mainly under sail when cruising), with a good bit of WOT 'fun-for-the-kids' stuff.
Is it a Macgregor 26? Very familiar with the design and workings.
The DuraJet will give users 20-25% more thrust (due to vectored thrust). So an operator with a 40 will get the thrust of a 50 HP. The speeds will be the same. In other words, the pump efficiency has the ability to perform more work than a propeller unit of the same HP.
If you went with a 60 etec with a DuraJet you may be able to pick up 3-5 MPH, and carry loads of a 75 HP. Is this enough to justify the swap??
One thing to note, the DuraJet system works very well with heavy, inefficient hull. I have a good deal of experience with Durajets on pontoon boats and heavy work skiffs.
How many hours on your engine? Would you consider trading it for the 60?
Bill,
Yes, it is a Mac26M.
Yes, I am looking to trade it in. I don't have an hour meter, but its on a sailboat... I've only gone through about one tank of oil. While I have only used the XD-100 oil in it, I asked the dealer that installed it to program it for any oil, just in case I couldn't find the good stuff... So, relatively few hours on a 2005 model. Although, I did bust the skeg off in a trailering incident. It didn't hit anything in the water. It occured while I was backing up the trailer... I know that will impact (no pun intended) the trade in value. But, the boat is in Missouri and you're in FL, so I didn't think you'd be interested in that sort of thing... What would you estimate its value at? Obviously, shipping it to you would be an issue...
Like I said before, I get between 15-17 mph with the ballast tank empty, now with the 40hp. This appears to be similar performance as other Mac26 owners get with 50hp 4-strokes. So, going to a straight 60hp ETEC, I was hoping to see numbers near what are being reported for 70hp 4-strokes. With what you say about the durajet, I might get even better numbers. If what you're saying is true, then I ought to get real close to 30mph. Which would be WELL worth it... Its just a matter of convincing the wife...
The Mac26M is an elegant design, I considered buying one due to its versitility. It's a great boat, very clever blalast system!!!
Let me clear up on thing first. Generally the DuraJet is NOT FASTER than a prop unit on light fast hulls. Even though there is 20-25% more thrust generated, this does not mean the boat will go faster. This is due to the increased surface area of the rotor housing on the jet. You will be able to get up on a plane easier, and maintain a plane at lower RPMS with less HP. The planning speed might be a few MPH slower than the prop unit.
Explain to your wife that people buy the DuraJet for safety. Accidents happen to the most expereince boaters. Beyond safety there are some terrific benefits.
Some performance examples on boats I have owned or recently tested with DuraJets: This may be a little revealing to you. All figures (radar) in MPH
Vessel Prop Unit DuraJet Increase time on plane w/DJ
20' Starcraft pontoon 50 etec 18.5 19.3 + 2.21 sec
13' Dory skiff 30 HP Johnson 24.5 23.7 + 3.01 sec
14' Zodiac F470 55 HP Johnson 29.5 28.3 + 2.44 Sec
18' Sea Ark Alum skiff 60 etec 33.4 34.5 + 1.75 Sec
21' Fiesta Pontoon 60 etec 21.2 21.8 + 1.90 Sec
The heavier the boat (Less efficient hull) the better the DuraJewt does (in speed and planning).This is because of the vectored thrust. Propellers ventilate and cavitate when you wind them up. A propeller takes time to grab, the jet takes less.
I'm not afraid of the shipping or damaged skeg. We could ship you the new engine and you could have your technician put the engine in the box and ship it back to us. One good thing is the swap would not take long for your technician to perform.
Could you send us a zip code and a few pictures of the engine. Need to see the damage, appearance of engine and get you a shipping cost (both ways) before we can go ahead.
Thanks,
Bill
The Heavier the Boat
The Durajet might work very well on a Mac26 fi this description is correct, since the Mac26 is a heavy pontoon boat type load for a 50hp motor.The heavier the boat (Less efficient hull) the better the DuraJewt does (in speed and planning).This is because of the vectored thrust. Propellers ventilate and cavitate when you wind them up. A propeller takes time to grab, the jet takes less.
..
If you try this out on your Mac26 please be sure and take some performance data to share with this discussion.
..
Thank You
Robert
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Bobby T.-26X #4767
- Captain
- Posts: 906
- Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 10:48 am
- Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
- Location: Oceanside Harbor, CA
hey DLT,
i appreciate all the time that you've put into the research of this animal as it provides for interesting reading. however, as it relates to you...
why not take the 6600 (minus trade-in) boat bucks and use for an etec 75 or 90 upgrade?
based on what you've been discussing here, you want more power and speed that your current etec 40 can offer.
i can almost guarantee that you will be disappointed with the performance of anything other than a 75 or 90. and you know what my choice would be...
Bob T.
"DaBob"
'02X w/ '04 90 TLDI
i appreciate all the time that you've put into the research of this animal as it provides for interesting reading. however, as it relates to you...
why not take the 6600 (minus trade-in) boat bucks and use for an etec 75 or 90 upgrade?
based on what you've been discussing here, you want more power and speed that your current etec 40 can offer.
i can almost guarantee that you will be disappointed with the performance of anything other than a 75 or 90. and you know what my choice would be...
Bob T.
"DaBob"
'02X w/ '04 90 TLDI
That's exactly what I'm trying to resolve...
I am trying to determine whether to go to a 90 or if this 60 will work. I'm leaning toward the 90. But, there are advantages for the 60.
The 60 is the exact same motor as my 40, so I know how it fits in the motor well. Similarly, I know all the cabling and such will be a straight swap over. This should make the swap easy enough that I can do it myself.
I expect (HOPE) the 90 will use all the same cabling and such, but may require some adjustments...
Reading their claim of 20-25% more thrust, I got to thinking that the 60 may be all I would really need...
I'm not going for the 75, since that in retrospect that sort of thing seems like a waste. I'm paying for the 60hp's weight, but only get 40 hp. That would be the same as the 75/90...
I am trying to determine whether to go to a 90 or if this 60 will work. I'm leaning toward the 90. But, there are advantages for the 60.
The 60 is the exact same motor as my 40, so I know how it fits in the motor well. Similarly, I know all the cabling and such will be a straight swap over. This should make the swap easy enough that I can do it myself.
I expect (HOPE) the 90 will use all the same cabling and such, but may require some adjustments...
Reading their claim of 20-25% more thrust, I got to thinking that the 60 may be all I would really need...
I'm not going for the 75, since that in retrospect that sort of thing seems like a waste. I'm paying for the 60hp's weight, but only get 40 hp. That would be the same as the 75/90...
dealer says 60hp is 60hp
DLT,
If you are looking for a big boost from the 40hp you have, I agree with Bobby T. that you are likely to be dissapointed with the gain of the nozzled 60hp compared to your 40hp. The dealer said you still get 60hp. I take that to mean that it would not be much faster if any faster than a 60hp open prop pushing a properly sized prop to the top half of the WOT throttle range. The nozzled prop would be awesome for control around the dock and kinder the manatees or other swimmers. The nozzled version would sound different since the prop is contained and that should change the vibrations you get.
..
I would go for a bigger outboard too. Ask the nozzle dealer guy if they are about to release for sale or offer to be a tester for their 90hp nozzled version.
..
If you are looking for a big boost from the 40hp you have, I agree with Bobby T. that you are likely to be dissapointed with the gain of the nozzled 60hp compared to your 40hp. The dealer said you still get 60hp. I take that to mean that it would not be much faster if any faster than a 60hp open prop pushing a properly sized prop to the top half of the WOT throttle range. The nozzled prop would be awesome for control around the dock and kinder the manatees or other swimmers. The nozzled version would sound different since the prop is contained and that should change the vibrations you get.
..
I would go for a bigger outboard too. Ask the nozzle dealer guy if they are about to release for sale or offer to be a tester for their 90hp nozzled version.
..