Suzuki 50 Problems

[Rich Walton]

I ordered all the parts to do the head on my boat when i was still on Curacao,($300) the guys at browns point are very good! If i can get this covered under warranty then i will have a complete set of top end gaskets. I wont be able to get it into the shop for at least 3 more weeks. The time line is killing me!

[Robert]

I was passing by my Suzuki dealer over the weekend. I stopped in and explained this oil/water mixing failure mode of the Suzuki DF50. They told me they never had one fail with the oil in the water. They also told me they are the 9th largest Suzuki outboard dealer in the USA.
..
Sorry, I was hoping to find some explaination for this failure that I could share.

[Tom Root]

Update~~~~ Well, took my motor in for the computer analysis today, and 10 mins and $92.00 later I found out absolutely nothing! Yep, they can tell me exactly the same thing I knew before I went in!

So, I am now scheduled for another round of troubleshooting, as they can't fit me into their tiny yard. They will have it cleared later this month, and then the'll fit me in. The minimum is a 3 hour ordeal at $90.00 per ( I believe) and well, the sky's the limit!

Maybe I should buy that dang 140 HP now.....hmmmmm, tempting!
And with a 6 year warranty of course!!!


It's looking better and better for me to buy my own Cherry Picker ( Portable Engine Hoist) and yank that puppy, and have them work on it that way!

Don't have a clue at this point! Aggrivating to say the least!

[Ric K]

Tom:

I'm sorry that they were unable to diagnose your engine problems.

Were you able to do a compression test?

How many hours do you have on your engine?

Did you work with Erik at the shop? If you did he must have a theory,
he usualy likes to brainstorm. I wonder why they are talking about a 3
hr. minimum to check your engine out, I would ask for a detailed ex-
planation as to what they are going to do for 3 hours ( you are going to
be into this thing for $362.00) I would hope they would "stop the meter"
once they found the problem, then you could decide how to proceed
from that point.

I realy simpathize with you, if you are looking at a relatively inexpen-
sive repair ( maybe it's an electronics component like a sensor or com-
puter that plugs in and out ) you may want to fix your motor. on the
other hand if it's a major repair, the cost of the diagnosis only makes it
worse.

It would be great to have cherry picker and and older spare motor for
times like this...You could be very sellective where you took your motor,
and if they took along time to repair it they would'nt hold you over a
barril!

Buena Suerte !

Ric

[Tom Root]

Ric, in all fairness, they did tell me upfront that the test would either produce results.....or not! Of course I had my fingers crossed, but it wasn't as easy as I had hoped! I have 172 hours on this motor, and besides what appeared to me as water in the oil once (about 100hrs) it was coffee brown in color, so that was suspect? I have had not a lick of problems with this motor!

It started wonderfully, and I got what I considered good performance.

I do own the expensive repair manual, and scoured through it to see if something can be checked for this problem, to no avail!

I just think it's pretty sad that the computer stuff doesn't indicate why it won't start? No compression check as yet, as my compression checker doesn't have a long enough line to reach into that deep spark plug recess.
That will come later, I guess. He did say to remove the intake assembly and the Fuel Injection system (can) where the fuel goes into behind the intake mainfold for the fuel injection electronics/injection takes place. He said sometimes that dirt gets in there, or water perhaps?

I just bought a nifty fuel/water seperator filter, just haven't installed it yet.

He did try and dump some fuel in the top cylinder (his fuel) and we cranked it...no go.

I am going to to go spend more time checking things as I can today.

I have replaced both high and low pressure fuel filters, spark plugs, water pump impeller, oil and filter, and all three zincs while I was at it, etc. about $120.00 or so in parts.

The bright side is it may not be an expensive computer perhaps?

Another point, is that the program he ran cost him $1,000.00 he said, and this is NOT available to the public at any price! You can buy a code reader for most vehicles nowadays for about 40 bucks or less, and I think it's sad that the Marine Engine manufacturers have not released this software and cables to the public! He did not have a printing capability BTW!

Got us ALL by the short hairs...huh?

[aya16]

Tom this is interesting to me as I have the same engine, I would buy a spark tester, a light that goes to the spark plug wire that would tell if youre getting spark. By the way the diag. you paid for should have been able to tell you this. If there is spark or power to the plugs all that is left is fuel and timing, the diag should have told you the timing was ok.

Pull the plugs what do they look like, brown? wet? black?
check the oil is it clean? no water? like before. Now if you are getting spark and the plugs look good then you have maybe a fuel problem.
check the simple stuff before you pay lots of money to find out the connector to the fuel tank has been knocked loose. change fuel

to check for spark make a home made spark tester. Two unsheided aligator clips tied together with exsposed wire, make sure they contact each other. use one end to grab the plug at the threads the other clamps onto a good ground at the motor, Plug has to be out so you can see spark.
turn the engine over and watch for a blue spark. If there isnt any check the man overboard switch is set right. ( I once spent two hours trying to start a new engine, pulling plugs, spraying starter fluid, everything in the world I could think of, before I saw the switch was not connected.)

As complicated as these motors get they still require the basic stuff to run,,,fuel, spark compression and timing. we see all the wires and computers and all the other stuff and we get overwhelmed. Its just an engine and all the computer stuff actually make them more dependable
not like the old days of points. Everyone in the old days knew how to change points because that was the culprit in almost all problems with the engines. They had to changed so many times we could do it in our sleep.

In diag. an engine you dont just find whats wrong you do a process of elimination spark, fuel, etc. Sad to say but todays mechs. seem to rely on a computer to tell them whats wrong as opposed to simple checks of elimination. If the computer doesnt tell them whats wrong their stumped.
once you are sure that spark isnt the problem you dont go back to that later. In all my years with motors I would say that most of the time it was something simple and it still took me a long time to find it. But being bull dog about it paid off. Afew times I gave up took it in paid good money for some guy to tell me it was just the whatsamacallit simple thing I was going to check next before I gave up. good luck keep me up to date

[Frank C]

... The bright side is it may not be an expensive computer perhaps?

Another point, is that the program he ran cost him $1,000.00 he said, and this is NOT available to the public at any price! You can buy a code reader for most vehicles nowadays for about 40 bucks or less, and I think it's sad that the Marine Engine manufacturers have not released this software and cables to the public! He did not have a printing capability BTW!

Got us ALL by the short hairs...huh?

Tom, sorry that I cannot find the link, but one of your SoCal neighbors posted of an outboard mechanic who was "very fast" and does house calls! Not sure he'd be available down by San Diego, but sounds as if you need to find him.

Cannot recall if it was the Oxnard guys or the MDR guys who were trading this guy's phone number, probably about a year ago - pretty sure it was in reference to a Suzuki.

[Captain Steve]

It was BK down in Alimitos bay

[Tom Root]

AYA16~ Sure did all the basics, several times, several ways. I was told that it may be that can (Fuel Injector Box) I said above, and it rained today, here in sunny California....imagine that!

As soon as I get the chance, I will be back at it! I really need my sailing fix, and bad!

I told Barb I need at least a full days sail in before we go back East the second week of May. I will be in Williamsburgh VA, and the Philly area for two weeks.

[Frank C]

Thanks Steve!

I found that "overheating thread" by BK, with phone number of the SoCal mechanic who does house calls. I'm thinking I might have my boat down there some day (visiting my son)- and might need to find a good Suzi wrench!

For you Orange County, Ca. residents, Rolf at Audiss Mobil Marine no longer advertises as he gets work from referals. His number 714-655-7736. $60 for trip charge to your boat.

[aya16]

Can you hear the injectors buzz when you turn the key on? they buzz at the same time the warning buzzer goes off when you turn the key on, so you have to have your ear right there to hear it. The buzz is the injectors injecting fuel to the cyl. if you hear that and its not getting fuel your clogged before them but with the fuel filters it has, I find it hard to believe any crude got in there. It seems like it would not clog them all, But water you said water and that might be the problem if the injectors got a good dose of water and sat for some time you just might have a clog. But I would pull the gas line from the fuel pump injector side and turn the engine over it should spray fuel all over if not there might be your problem.
Back in the old days we just poured gas into the carb and if the pump was bad it would run till the carb went dry. Dont know how you could do someting like that with the injector. Although I have the same engine I dont know if the injector could be pulled out like a cars. I do know WD40 will start an engine it wont run well but it will run.
But if you have spark its got to be fuel or timing or comp.

Try squezzing the bulb at the tank as you try and start it maybe you can force some gas in there.

[Tom Root]

So today, I pulled the spark arrestor/air box off, and found that the choke was stuck in the closed position.

After much cranking....It Started...yea!!!

The problem now is that it does NOT Idle at all! Goes straight to 3K RPM's and does advance....fast to 6500 RPM's. It stays running until I max throttle it, then the choke slams shut and it dies. It Is super erratic, as if it wasn't timed correctly, it surges a few hundred RPM about three times a second. The motor swings wildly when I do this also!

I also looked through my expensive service manual and saw that I can adjust the IAC (Idle Air Control) Hopefully if the weather holds I will get to check that out possibly in the AM. Strange that it needs that much adjustment, any other clues out here on circumstances so far? It still isn't doing any more self diagnostic beeps or flashes either, I sort of wish it was! It may be helpful at this point?

The sticking choke is another clue, as I have to manually push against it, or push it from it's detent manually on the bottom of the intake to get it to open....strange!

[Moe]

Well, I sold my DF50 Service Manual with the boat, but why would a fuel-injected engine have a choke? Throttle-body, I can see.

It is normal for the engine to get to 3,000 rpm and surge (that's the rev limiter cutting it out) if you try to run it fast in neutral... or if a whole host of other problems occur (like overheat).

--
Moe

[Theo]

Tom,

Gotta agree with Moe here. Most EFI engines do not have a choke. Most likely you are looking at the throttle itself. If it is sticking that would explain most of your problems. If the throttle is gummed shut it is entirely likely that the Idle Air Controller is also gummed shut. No start!

Just a quick overview. In an EFI engine you do not give any gas to start it. The electronic control does it all by itself. The basic control is the idle bypass and the Idle Control Valve. The main (butterfly) throttle stays closed and air enters the engine through an Idle Bypass passageway in the throttle body. The amount of air entering the engine is controlled by a (usually) electonically actuatted needle valve that restricts or allows air through the Idle bypass passage way. The engine then uses info from the main Mass Airflow sensor and the temperature of the air at the manifold and engine temperature to meter out the proper amount of fuel at the injectors. It will also dynamically adjust the idle by adjusting the amount of air at the idle bypass valve. There is no need for a choke since fuel air mixture is controlled at the injectors. Need a richer mixture? Squirt more gas!

I might look into pulling your throttle body and clening it or replacing it. If this is the case you should ask for your money back from whoever did your diagnostics. Given your symptoms, sticky throttle or malfuntioning idle controller should be thoroughly checked.

Good luck,

Theo

PS Ditto for your Mass Air Flow (MAF) sensor. A malfunctioning MAF will usually show up in an electrinic diagnostic though!

[Moe]

That's a good description, Theo, but I don't think the DF50 has a mass airflow sensor, IIRC. Our BigFoot doesn't, and neither do the EFI Harleys I've seen. They use only the Throttle Position Sensor and Manifold Absolute Pressure Sensor when warmed up. During warm-up they also use a Manifold Air Temperature Sensor, Cylinder Head Temperature Sensor, or Water Temperature Sensor to determine when the injectors need to squirt more gas. During the start sequence, they take a reading between the time the key is turned to the On position and then to the Start position.

One thing that's important to do with these systems is to let them go through their boot-up sequence after you turn the key on, but before you turn it to start. It's sure tempting to bypass that noisey buzzer by going directly from Off to Start, but you need to hold off on starting until it goes off.

--
Moe