Greetings to all. I have been asked to place a poll on this site regarding a new 28' foot trailerable sailboat that has been designed by two designers involved in several aspects of boat design and construction including the Amercias Cup.
Here is the scenario they would like your comments and opinions on as well as your vote in the poll. You are at a major U.S. sailboat show and you view two boats. One is the MacGregor 26M which is priced between $21,000.00 & $30,000.00 depending on factory and engine options. The second is a new entry into the market. It has a 28' LOA, 8'.4" Beam, 2'.11" Draft with Keel up, 6.0" Standing Headroom, 450 SQ Ft. Sail Area. Deck features include three Lewmar transparent hatches. One standard size over the forward V-Beth and two smaller ones which are over the galley and head. All lines are run to the cockpit and rigging includes a solid boom vang. Cockpit has Edson pedestal steering with compass and engine controls at wheel. There are two hinge mounted storage lockers on each of the cockpit seat and a ice chest compartment concealed in the bridge deck which can be accessed via the cockpit or cabin. There is also a slide-out swimming ladder and a flush outboard well capable of carrying a 15hp outboard. Cabin amenities include double aft berth under cockpit. Main saloon with facing seats, bulkhead mounted folding nav table, galley, head with shower. The forward cabin has a private door to the head, seat for reading and a hanging locker. The designers are attempting to determine the viability of building this boat in the U.S. Important Note: The poll question is not what you think the boat will/should cost but at what price would/could you pay for it. Thanks ever so much for your assistance. The same poll will be run on some of the other trailer sailor sites shortly. This one was choosen first because of the loyalty you show for your boat as well as the open and honest discourse that takes place.
New Zealand Designers Asks For Your Assistance.
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Frank C
Assuming I've understood your specification ... priced to include a 15 hp outboard . . . this boat would NOT meet my needs as a replacement for the 26X. Planing at 15 knots is an integral element in the service package I might consider as an upgrade to my Mac. Even though this boat has very desireable features, still lacks that one additional feature I'd require.
Also, the difference between the quoted 15 hp, vs the 150 hp motor that I'd require would easily be $10,000 - so MY pricing scale would contemplate that much more costly motor. If the 28-footer had same amenities plus a 150 hp motor - and achieved 15 Knots - I'd think its worth, to me, at $40k to $45k.
However, I'm a little worried about the displacement. That weight of 4,400 lbs. is quite a load to put up on plane, and plus trailer, it makes quite a towing load!
Is this boat water-ballasted? ... what percentage ballast? ...
Employing a centerboard or daggerboard? I would prefer CB.
I chose NOT to vote, so I don't contaminate the results of your poll.
Also, the difference between the quoted 15 hp, vs the 150 hp motor that I'd require would easily be $10,000 - so MY pricing scale would contemplate that much more costly motor. If the 28-footer had same amenities plus a 150 hp motor - and achieved 15 Knots - I'd think its worth, to me, at $40k to $45k.
However, I'm a little worried about the displacement. That weight of 4,400 lbs. is quite a load to put up on plane, and plus trailer, it makes quite a towing load!
Is this boat water-ballasted? ... what percentage ballast? ...
Employing a centerboard or daggerboard? I would prefer CB.
I chose NOT to vote, so I don't contaminate the results of your poll.
An opinion
From what I'e seen and heard, I believe there is a real nitch for a boat like this, up to and including $40,000.00. Based upon talks with trailer-sailors in North America, the Caribbean, and South America, I would bet that a fair number would end up eventually beyond the borders of the continental U.S. In my opinion, such a boat properly constructed and marketed could do very well. MM
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They Theirs
- Captain
- Posts: 790
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Frank C
Withholding your vote? Are you going Independent on us?
Im willing to pay for innovation and changes for a better Hybrid Powersailor. Wishbone Rig Images I would be interested in a new tapered carbon spar design with a modern Cat Rig like the Wylie Boat of the year , with a wishbone boom providing an ease of reefng and taking the head-knocker out of tacking. Having the ability to spill wind aloft with the upper mast bending to the lee. The minimum of standing rigging would contribute to a new cabin and deck design with for and aft standing rigging to work with the asymmetrical spinnaker. A cockpit without the pedestal, allowing enhanced movement with a tiller providing a better feel at the helm when sailing combined with wheel steering helm at the cabin bulkhead. The hull again must retain most of the Powersailors ability to produce a good turn of speed under the modest weight of outboard power easily deployed for motoring or to compliment sailing. A new hull and deployable appendage to provide ample freeboard but I would be willing to sacrifice some standing headroom for improved sailing characteristics.
Wylie 30
Just dreaming out loud! It would take some design to bring this rig to the trailer sailor market. Im also abstaining on the vote for cannibalizing their design.
Withholding your vote? Are you going Independent on us?
Im willing to pay for innovation and changes for a better Hybrid Powersailor. Wishbone Rig Images I would be interested in a new tapered carbon spar design with a modern Cat Rig like the Wylie Boat of the year , with a wishbone boom providing an ease of reefng and taking the head-knocker out of tacking. Having the ability to spill wind aloft with the upper mast bending to the lee. The minimum of standing rigging would contribute to a new cabin and deck design with for and aft standing rigging to work with the asymmetrical spinnaker. A cockpit without the pedestal, allowing enhanced movement with a tiller providing a better feel at the helm when sailing combined with wheel steering helm at the cabin bulkhead. The hull again must retain most of the Powersailors ability to produce a good turn of speed under the modest weight of outboard power easily deployed for motoring or to compliment sailing. A new hull and deployable appendage to provide ample freeboard but I would be willing to sacrifice some standing headroom for improved sailing characteristics.
Wylie 30
Just dreaming out loud! It would take some design to bring this rig to the trailer sailor market. Im also abstaining on the vote for cannibalizing their design.
Agree with Frank C and add
I would like the boat to have the same speed as Frank C mentioned, with an engine large enough to provide a quiet cruise at a decent speed. Pulling kids on tow toys is also required. Having to go hull speed and only having a weekend to complete the trip is very limiting. Having the speed when a storm is brewing and I am within range of my trailer or slip before dark if I can go faster is priceless.
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I would like to add a few more comfort items:
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1.) Enable cabin temperature control for comfortable year round use the hull needs decent thermal insulating properties. This will allow much easier heat and cooling to be added by the user or to be offered as an option. There must be some material available off a space ship or something that can be added to give the hull some insulation without risk of rot or odor retention. This will also limit condensation. Maybe even a place to mount a water heat exchanger type heat pump for heating and cooling with a high power at the dock mode and an efficient cool the cabin before bed mode.
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2.) Swim access better then the Mac26. A way for children to be able to climb in after a swim, maybe even a way to let them sit on the stern and paddle their feet in the water. One of my kids biggest complaints about the Mac26X was that even though we were on the water, we were still to far from the water, they could not get wet easily.
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3.) Built in or available as an option water pump to rinse the kids with salt water first then a quick rinse with fresh water.
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4.) LED lighting for the kids to read and a place to mount a LCD DVD player for the little kids. Hull insulation will help a lot to keep it quiet for these activities when motoring.
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With these additions I could get my family on the boat more often and keep them on the boat longer for trips.
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Maybe a wild technological breakthrough engine very tiny and light weight mounted inboard with the power for high speed. Check this out: http://www.regtech.com/18.html Maybe a deal to use this new boat to advertise this new motor technology.
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I would like to add a few more comfort items:
..
1.) Enable cabin temperature control for comfortable year round use the hull needs decent thermal insulating properties. This will allow much easier heat and cooling to be added by the user or to be offered as an option. There must be some material available off a space ship or something that can be added to give the hull some insulation without risk of rot or odor retention. This will also limit condensation. Maybe even a place to mount a water heat exchanger type heat pump for heating and cooling with a high power at the dock mode and an efficient cool the cabin before bed mode.
..
2.) Swim access better then the Mac26. A way for children to be able to climb in after a swim, maybe even a way to let them sit on the stern and paddle their feet in the water. One of my kids biggest complaints about the Mac26X was that even though we were on the water, we were still to far from the water, they could not get wet easily.
..
3.) Built in or available as an option water pump to rinse the kids with salt water first then a quick rinse with fresh water.
..
4.) LED lighting for the kids to read and a place to mount a LCD DVD player for the little kids. Hull insulation will help a lot to keep it quiet for these activities when motoring.
..
With these additions I could get my family on the boat more often and keep them on the boat longer for trips.
..
Maybe a wild technological breakthrough engine very tiny and light weight mounted inboard with the power for high speed. Check this out: http://www.regtech.com/18.html Maybe a deal to use this new boat to advertise this new motor technology.
I'm with Frank on this. I'm not sure that what you describe is a viable alternative to my boat...
I don't know that I'm in the market for a non-powersailer... If the design would be upgraded to handle an engine sufficient to plane, then I might be willing to cough up somthing in the 40k to 45k range...
But, it doesn't look like that is being contemplated. So, I can't say I'd buy it even at cost... Sadly, true be told, I'm more of a houseboater than a true sailor who really cares about every little fraction of a knot under sail...
Finally, I have a tow vehicle that can handle it, but most do not. So, my view is probably in the minority, and certainly not your target market. So, I too abstained...
I don't know that I'm in the market for a non-powersailer... If the design would be upgraded to handle an engine sufficient to plane, then I might be willing to cough up somthing in the 40k to 45k range...
But, it doesn't look like that is being contemplated. So, I can't say I'd buy it even at cost... Sadly, true be told, I'm more of a houseboater than a true sailor who really cares about every little fraction of a knot under sail...
Finally, I have a tow vehicle that can handle it, but most do not. So, my view is probably in the minority, and certainly not your target market. So, I too abstained...
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They Theirs
- Captain
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Billy
- First Officer
- Posts: 439
- Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 3:50 pm
- Location: Dunn NC 2001-26X140 "XX"(DoubleCross)
Sounds like a well thought out sailboat, but I'm sorry it does not meet my criteria. I like a 1' draft for the skinny water of the southeast coast (US) & Bahamas. If I step up, I would like more than 2 extra feet in length. Being 6 foot, I want a vessel inwhich I can stand up completely in the cabin. And finally, though 95% of the time my boat sails, I bought it for the power/planing capability.
Since I would not be in the market for this boat, I also chose to abstain from voting.
Best of luck on your endeavor, it sounds like it would be a wonderful sailboat.
Since I would not be in the market for this boat, I also chose to abstain from voting.
Best of luck on your endeavor, it sounds like it would be a wonderful sailboat.
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LOUIS B HOLUB
- Admiral
- Posts: 1315
- Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 7:40 am
- Location: 1999 Mac-X, Nissan 50 HP, Kemah, TX, "Holub Boat"
Im pleased with my Mac-X, and the fact that it floats when flooded. It would be difficult for a bigger boat (with weighted keel) to compete with the Mac. After all...theyre boats all over AMERICA already with features youve described...and they cant touch the Mac and its price.
When the MacGregor figures out how to add a functional "little" shower, there wont be a manufacturer that can compete -- (IF .. MacGregor doesnt get money hungry in pricing of the boat).
The Mac as a functional safe "family boat" has no competition at this point...Oh Well...thats my opinion.
Holub Boat
When the MacGregor figures out how to add a functional "little" shower, there wont be a manufacturer that can compete -- (IF .. MacGregor doesnt get money hungry in pricing of the boat).
The Mac as a functional safe "family boat" has no competition at this point...Oh Well...thats my opinion.
Holub Boat
Thanks so much for your response to date. It sure shows how diverse Mac owners are in terms of their needs and desires for a boat. It is also very appreciated that those who have no desire are simply abstaining from voting. Pretty classy as you are right, it does "contaminate" the results.
The reason for this excercise is that I personally have seen on this site as well as others the continual requests for a "larger Mac". Well, you have some folks interested in looking at this scenario and hence the reason for this discussion.
The new boat is not a powersailer. The intent was to design and produce a trailerable crusing sailboat at an affordable price. One that is very stable, fun for the family, has spacious accomodations and is a quick mover under its primary power.....sail.
It is not a water ballasted boat. It has a retractable CB keel, hence the difference in dry weight. Hunter has dropped both of its water ballasted boats in favor of one with a schoal draft and the Catalina 250 offer both versions of the boat.
Consider the following:
MacGregor 26 = +/- $28,000.00
Hunter 25 = +/- $40,000.00
Catalina 250 = +/- $40,000.00
Hunter 27 = +/- $70,000.00
Catalina 270 = +/- $70,000.00
New Kiwi Designed 28' = +/- $?????
The folks down under are simply trying to determine if this boat is viable to build in the U.S. I think they are hoping to bring a loaded boat to the market in the high $30's.
Thanks again for your input.
The reason for this excercise is that I personally have seen on this site as well as others the continual requests for a "larger Mac". Well, you have some folks interested in looking at this scenario and hence the reason for this discussion.
The new boat is not a powersailer. The intent was to design and produce a trailerable crusing sailboat at an affordable price. One that is very stable, fun for the family, has spacious accomodations and is a quick mover under its primary power.....sail.
It is not a water ballasted boat. It has a retractable CB keel, hence the difference in dry weight. Hunter has dropped both of its water ballasted boats in favor of one with a schoal draft and the Catalina 250 offer both versions of the boat.
Consider the following:
MacGregor 26 = +/- $28,000.00
Hunter 25 = +/- $40,000.00
Catalina 250 = +/- $40,000.00
Hunter 27 = +/- $70,000.00
Catalina 270 = +/- $70,000.00
New Kiwi Designed 28' = +/- $?????
The folks down under are simply trying to determine if this boat is viable to build in the U.S. I think they are hoping to bring a loaded boat to the market in the high $30's.
Thanks again for your input.
AWKIII,
Yes, many of us want a bigger Mac. But, that means a bigger powersailor to almost all of us...
In my mind, a 28' trailerable (non-powersailor) sailboat is not a bigger Mac.
I'm not suggesting that it wouldn't compete quite well with the Hunters and Catalinas, but that just aint the market your talking to here...
Obviously, there may be some Mac owners who would be interested in this new boat. That's just statistics...
Yes, many of us want a bigger Mac. But, that means a bigger powersailor to almost all of us...
In my mind, a 28' trailerable (non-powersailor) sailboat is not a bigger Mac.
I'm not suggesting that it wouldn't compete quite well with the Hunters and Catalinas, but that just aint the market your talking to here...
Obviously, there may be some Mac owners who would be interested in this new boat. That's just statistics...
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James V
- Admiral
- Posts: 1705
- Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 9:33 am
- Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
- Location: Key West, Fl USA, 26M 06, Merc 50hp BF "LYNX"
I didn't vote - does it go over 15 mph under power? Looks like the interor space is taken up for cockpit lockers.
Under $ 30K - is this a lake boat or coastal?
Every boat that you listed has it own special items. I could have afforded any of these boats but I bought a Mac 26M. I would not buy this boat.
Under $ 30K - is this a lake boat or coastal?
Every boat that you listed has it own special items. I could have afforded any of these boats but I bought a Mac 26M. I would not buy this boat.
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Frank C
The Kiwi design sounds terrific. It would nicely expand comfort and convenience, maybe sailability too. But I think it lacks the versatility of the Macgregors. Same issue with Hunter & Catalina. I would dearly love a stateroom & head w/shower, but not at the cost of easy launching/towing and planing. The Hunter is not only more costly, but heavier, sits higher on the trailer, and slower.
WADR, Roger Macgregor has sold 7,500 boats as WB 26-foot powersailers since 1995. Hunter & Catalina (together) have probably sold half that many during that same time - perhaps less than half.
True trailerability (WB), launching ease, the ability to sail, planing speed, plus a "weekending" interior - I believe that all these are the integral components that define that boating market. Roger spent 20 years honing that formula.
Having found it, he's spent 11 years fixated on that single target!
WADR, Roger Macgregor has sold 7,500 boats as WB 26-foot powersailers since 1995. Hunter & Catalina (together) have probably sold half that many during that same time - perhaps less than half.
True trailerability (WB), launching ease, the ability to sail, planing speed, plus a "weekending" interior - I believe that all these are the integral components that define that boating market. Roger spent 20 years honing that formula.
Having found it, he's spent 11 years fixated on that single target!