boat show report

[jackie m]

First and foremost, the daggerboard is poorly constructed and gets easily damaged (I'm not talking collision or grounding.) The trunk area is too big and the board fiberglass is too thin. I already replaced two boards. I am in the process of having one custom made with lower tolerances and weight at the bottom.

What happened to your two daggerboards? What is happening that makes you say your trunk area is too big? I would really be interested in how your custom-made daggerboard works out for you. btw, there was mention here about filling the hollow space of the daggerboard with small bearings for weight.

Our Mac has been pretty forgiving. At one point when trying to trailer the boat in high winds, the boat was blown into shallow water with the rudders down and digging into the sand. I'm happy to say the rudders are fine.

jackie m

[delevi]

Wow, thats quite the boat beating!

My first board (prior to breaking) had severe chips in the trailing edge and some in the leading edge. I believe this is from sailing in big chop, possibly with trailing seas causing the fore and aft movement of the board within the trunk to cause the damage. There is clearly much play within the trunk, which is why I believe the tolerance is too great. One day, I noticed that the boat was skidding sideways. I felt like I had no keel. After getting back to the harbor, I de-rigged and pulled out the board to inspect it. The bottom half was gone, just snapped off. The dealer wouldnt believe me when I told him that I didnt have a collision or grounding. His explanation was that I probably left it in a slip overnight with the board down and the boat sat on it during low tide. This seemed to make sense, since I actually did leave it down overnight while in a slip. My second board had similar chunks chipped out of it. I had the dealer replace that one on Rogers dime. I think with these two experiences, I am qualified to stay that these things are flimsy and/or the tolerances within the trunk are too great. I would advise against adding lead shot to the stock board, due to its flimsy construction. It may not hold up to the added loads, however, some have made this mod. The board I am having made will have an oak core with carbon & epoxy exterior. The bottom foot or so will have 150 lbs of solid lead. The tolerances will be reduced by making the board a bit wider and thicker. I am also having a cushioning material built into the top portion of the leading and trailing edges where it will sit in the trunk. So far, Joel at IDA Sailor Marine has sent me two plugs to test in the trunk. They were both too thick to clear the trunk. Hopefully the third one will work so I can give him the green light on the specs. I will post once I receive it and have a chance to test it.

Cheers

[tcoltrane]

I bought my boat from Scott's Yachts in Wilmington, NC. I was well
pleased with the finish detail and condition of the boat. He had done
a perfect job of installing the many mod's I had requested. He is
a retired Engineer from GE and is a super person and I would recommend
him highly. My boat is a 2005M, white hull.

Tim Coltrane
North Carolina

[Billy]

Tim, got my X from Scott also. Saw him on a Sunday afternoon. Told him how I wanted it equipped. Picked it up on Thursday, all rigged as requested, polished and ready to go. Scott seems to have a genuine concern for his customers. He still remembers you after the sale.

Tim, where do you sail?

[Divecoz]

Let me preface this with I am not an experienced sailor so I may need a bit more explanation than most, for me to understand your answers . .

Delevi. . . if your boat sat in a slip with the board down and the tide went out why would it not just settle down over the board ? What is causing the board to JAM in the trunk . Please explain that to me . I am also interested in the damage you have experienced with your boards in spite of the fact that no one else has seen this / these problems. Why are you finding chips in the front leading and aft trailing edges from the board being down in following seas?? Why would the board rock back and forth forward and backwards and against what would it knock to damage the board in the down position? Its hanging in free water? Even if it was in the up position and banging and there is very little room to swing one way or another in the trunk , against what object is it banging to knock out chips in the edges??
I find it very interesting that have broken two boards and that both had chips on the leading and trailing edges that caused structural failure . Something is happening that you / we are missing here .

[LOUIS B HOLUB]

Ive been very satisfied with my Mac-X, regarding quality. Its sturdy, doesnt leak, and seems very strong. A Mac Dealer friend of mine has a new M on display, and it looked equally nice. I saw no flaws at all. Interior seems spacious, and more windows are nice. I prefer white interior, instead of the light brown color tone...but no one ever agrees on colors. The hull design on the M has a nicer appearance in my opinion.
If only MacGregor had galvanized trailers....sigh....Maybe Santa will get me a tandum aluminum trailer soon...heh heh.

[Terry]

I also have chips in the leading and trailing edges of my daggerboard, but they are on the top edges. I cannot see anything at the top that they would rub against even when the board is all the way up, yet the chips are there, go figure. I think the board is too loose also.

[Divecoz]

When is it that you think your chipping your board's ? Your board is in the trunk only when under power and on the trailer and some say when at rest in a slip. . mine sat in a slip /pier all summer board up mast up btw. . . .and not one chip btw board was up because the water was shallow at the pier. . I went out just now as WW&S is right next to the garage and yes as I already knew the board will move in the trunk but barely and not enough I would "think" to damage the board there is maybe 1/2 inch of space front and then again in back . . . Snapping a board in half a long ways from no where is not my idea of fun so let me ask what are the hull #'s you fellows have .. Maybe they changed composite of the board ??? The clearance should not have changed in the trunk. . .Let me ask this too why would surface edge chips derogate the board to the point of causing it to snap in half under accepted stress loads?? By Chips I thought you refered to gel coat chips . . . My concern is, as others may chime in with . . Many on this board are hoping and planning to make rather long extended trips on these boats and though yours are no doubt and so far isolated incidents this is a matter of concern . .

[Richard O'Brien]

San Francisco Bay must have something in the water we're missing? I forgot to pull up my daggerboard once, and tried to drive onto the trailer like The dvd shows. It didn't appear to do any damage to the daggerboard, but sure stopped me suddenly. My first season I drifted onto some breakwater rocks trying to get my little motor started. I got a few chips about the size of a nickel but nothing more? Having read your earlier post about letting the mainsail out running downwind, I'm glad to know ther's someone out there like you Delevi, testing the Mac limits. I've never let my boom out that far. I usually steer a little off the wind preferring a beam reach ,if possible. Please keep us informed.

[Frank C]

My boat is X, not M. But I think I can suggest what's happened to Leon's DB on SF Bay. Start with the general observation that Roger's designs are optimized for lowest possible weight. There's a natural assumption that the DB will suffer immense sideways forces when detering leeway, but maybe not such great forces at the fore or aft board edges. Roger can be expected to build accordingly - tailoring the amount of materials for expected stresses.

Observe also that the board's fore-to-aft dimension is a couple inches less than the slot's length, fore-to-aft. Now, especially when sailing in stiff winds, there's a natural tendency for the board to angle aft at the bottom. This places the board's top forward edge against the front of the slot and the board's aft edge hard-against the narrow bottom aft edge of slot & hull. This is probably an unanticipated stress, exacerbated because it is point-loaded! However, few boats face our Bay's stiff winds day after day, so Leon's board is probably blazing the trail here.

If this drag-induced stress were constant it would be a much smaller problem. However, now try sailing several months in consistently stiff winds through the related severe chop. Every wave & trough may induce a fore-to-aft momentum to the dagger board, shock loading those edges of the board. While it's true that a stiff and steady wind MIGHT bind the sides of the board steady to the slot sides, the hobby-horsing action will inevitably hammer the board at least a dozen times per afternoon? ... right on those points least able to endure it.

I think there's a good chance that the Mac factory has under-designed the DB (WHAT - not Roger@!). Unfortunately, Leon is their heavy weather beta-tester. Instead of arguing with him, the dealer should have done some work to examine all potentials.

Just one opinion ... Macgregor should probably pay for Leon's after-market board.

[Divecoz]

I follow your line of reason but. . .
Unless I have miss understood something. . .that is not where the chips are occurring . . When the board is down there is give or take 1 foot of board in the trunk . . . damage to the leading edge could be taking place when the board is down where the board exits the trunk and . . . . . .possibly at the very top of the board . I am not sure how much damage you will see at the top because of the possible pendulum effect you might be seeing due to the rope used to raise and lower the board acting like a pivot and after measuring my trunk there appears to be less than 3/4" for movement forward and less backwards. . . (board is hanging unobstructed straight down in the trunk) total movement front to back maybe
1 1/4". . .
I believe it was said the board snapped in half . . .that would put the break about 2 to 3 feet below the bottom of the trunk/hull . That would put it nowhere near the damaged area. . . wouldn't it ? My personal concern for this is I "had " anticipated adding 10 to 15 pounds of lead shot to my board this spring . Reason being . . the rule of thumb is adding 10 below is like removing as much as 100 lbs above depending on the height above the axis point . Maybe these boards wont withstand the additional inertia load caused by bottom loading them? That Might not be too bad . . . if it happened IF I make sure and have a spare board along with me as changing it out is easy . . well not during a storm maybe . .

[tcoltrane]

Billy
I live in Lexington but sail out of Oriental. Will Scott has been down and sailed with me twice. He and his wife are coming down to sail me again this summer. He is a great guy in my book and has turned out to be a good friend to boot. If I ever had a problem I know he would take care
of it.

TColtrane

[Chip Hindes]

I believe you guys are postulating a failure mode based on loads which don't regularly occur. When sailing the board does not slam or chuck fore and aft or side to side either one. Once the boat begins to sail, the board will be jammed sideways in the trunk resisting leeway. It's no different with a centerboard or a daggerboard and it doesn't matter if the board is slightly loose in the trunk. Once it's loaded up, it's jammed in place and doesn't move. A tack or controlled jibe will shift the load from one side to another, but even in high winds this tends to occur fairly gradually and not with a bang. If you like to slam jibe, it's a little faster, but how often can you do this even if you like to abuse the boat in this fashion? Not too.

The only time the board slams or chucks is when stationary either at anchor or at the dock, or when powering with the board down.

[Divecoz]

Not doubting you Chip, but can any of the other Engineer types concur this as fact? If so then we are at ground Zero on why the board broke and why 2 fellows are seeing chips in their boards with no answer for how they got there.
Maybe while a few are pondering their answers I might also ask. . . . Would my thought of adding 10 to 15 lbs of shot to my board actually help, or would that amount be so little, so as to be totally insignificant?

[delevi]

Divecoz,

The only logical explanation I can come up with is that the board does sustain some stress impact on the leading and trailing edges when sailing through heavy chop, especially with trailing seas which tend to lift the stern, causing sudden changes in speed. This would likely un-wedge the board from its position and then cause a sudden jolt, causing impact at the points which, as Frank suggests, may be the points least strong (under-engineered by Roger.) Motoring with the board down, which I typically only do when going in and out of harbor at 5 mph or motor-sailing at low speeds when there is no wind and I dont want to drop the main, also causes stresses on the trailing and leading edges, since there are no side loads from sailing/heeling. These areas with the wedged chunks in my previous boards were in places where it sits in the trunk when fully down, top 16".

As for the one that snapped, it probably was as the dealer suggested, unless the same type of damage was so severe that it just broke under stress loads. If the boat sat on the board at low tide, it would theoretically slide up into the trunk, unless there was a bit of an angle, which would then cause it to snap.

Now for the latest. I just installed my 3rd board, since my custom one isnt ready yet. (Going through size issues to get the tolerances to a minimum via having the IDA Sailor Marine send me small plugs the shape of the board-to-be to se how it fits in the trunk.) I used the board for the first time last weekend. There was very little wind and smooth seas. I derigged afterwards and pulled the board up, since my 3rd test plug should be arriving soon and I will need the DB trunk empty. This board, with one use has a 2 long and deep wedge into the fiberglass of the trailing edge. Im baffled and really concerned. Im now thinking maybe there is something wrong with my boat. I looked through the trunk and dont see or feel any rough areas, so this is truly a mystery. I called the dealer about this and may have them inspect it again, perhaps bringing this to the Mac factorys attention. According to the dealer, I was the only one they had with this problem, except for one or two people who clearly motored with DB down at higher speeds.