Jib vs Genny

[Scott]

Overtightened halyards are as detrimental to sail shape as overloose halyards BTW.

As for the stock A-sail on my 97 X The length of the luff is such that even by pulling my tack line to get the tack "on the deck", there is still not enough luff tension for much upwind performance.

This pic shows the tack on the bow



This pic is on the same set and notice the slot between the furled jib and the luff of the sail. IMHO the halyard needs to be about 1' higher hence the percieved need for a standalone spinnaker halyard.



On edit These pics were taken while beatin as hard upwind as we could make the spin sail. Make note of the boom position

[Frank C]

Octaman,
Delevi has a roller furling jib, so halyard tension begins at "mediocre" and declines from there. All CDI users have this same frustration. I believe the CDI is a poor choice for flying the standard jib. It is very nice to keep a Genoa on the CDI furler ... but my pond (same as delevi) so frequently offers very brisk winds, I'm thinking of downsizing from roller furled 135 Genny to a standard hank-on jib.

Regarding engines: I guess I have the same basic Suzuki as you, and absolutely the same purchasing logic. One could improve the mac's sailing performance by reducing engine weight. However, if one's priority on sail performance can tolerate diminished motoring performance ... then the Mac was the wrong choice among boats!
(BTW, your profile info reflects a Honda 70 ??? )

Scott - I've never used an assym. But reading your comments makes me wonder if you'd be better off with a shorter luff ?? (I just don't like the idea of mounting a fore-halyard above the upper shrouds.)

[Scott]

Frank, I once was of the same mind. Even argued against it on this board. (Not for structural but for sail handling reasons) After much use of my spinnaker and extensive reading I cannot find a good persuasive arguement for using the jib halyard other than "I do not have a dedicated Spinnaker halyard". Quite the opposite.

All of the sailmakers reccomend flying the spinnaker above the forestay. All of the higher end fractional rigged boats have a dedicated spinnaker halyard above the forestay.

With this knowledge in tow I feel very comfortable mounting a halyard 6" to 1' above my forestay.

On edit I do like flying my spinnaker from the Jib halyard for cross or upwind use as I prefer tacking to Gybing!!

[Lease]

A good subject, with good input.

Even though I have chosen the boat for its cruising and motoring features, I find that I really don't like sailing a boat that is not set up correctly.

We will be doing an Australian classic for trailerables in early March, The Marlay Point Overtnight Race. We usually get a range of conditions for this even and I will be using it to determine whether my thoughts on what needs doing are valid.

At this point I would put rig setup as the second worst sailing feature of the boat, only exceeded by the above and below waterline shape of the boat.

At the moment, when I rig the boat I have to run the jib halyard forward and use it (with purchase) to pull the mast forward to get pretension on the furler as forestay; then run the main halyard aft and do the same thing to get the backstay on hard enough to get any rig tension in the boat. That is unsatisfactory

Going foward, I tend to think that I will be going with either one of the following confirgurations:

1. If I choose a square kite; a muscle box or simple block and tackle on the foredeck working through a turning block to the base of the furler to adjust the rig tension, or

2. If I go with an assy kite on a prodder; swept running backstays

The latter option is less likely as it is the more complicated, more racing oriented solution that means compromise in some of the cruising aspects.

Correct rig tension is really, really important to performance. In general, lighter winds and downwind sailing require less rig tension than their opposites. Having the ability to adjust the rig tension and knowing what works best in various circumstances helps enormously in the satisfaction that is gained from having a boat that is driving and running in the groove.

As far as running a jib, instead of a genny in anything but a light breeze in the Mac, that's a no-brainer. The hanked jib is far superior. The problem for most people is getting forward to take it down in strong conditions, with family on board, is not an appealing choice.

I wouldn't worry about running a masthead kite (assy, or square) on a fractionally rigged mast. As long as you have a proper split, adjustable backstay, you won't have unusual forces acting above the hounds.

[Jack O'Brien]

Scott:

I have the CDI furler. I mounted a hound (actually a 3" bail left over from my vang) exactly one foot higher than the jib/furler halyard hound and run the jib halyard through it which I use for the A-spinnaker. The added foot helps raise the tack which I control with a snatch block on a pendant to the footpiece that holds the furler. (Can't remember the correct name now.) The tack line runs through the snatch block back to the cabintop winch. I have a anchor roller I will mount on the bow that will probably become the tack for the spinnaker as it has a nice bail on the outside top end.

[delevi]

Nice to read more input on this thread.

Octoman,

I haven't had a chance to use my spinnaker much, but it's nice to know it can be used upwind. I'm not sure if I want to rig a halyard above the headstay, since I got it mostly for downwind sailing in light air.

As Frank pointed out, I use a furler, so controlling halyard tension isn't an option. I will gladly take that compromise over having to go to the foredeck to do a sail change, especially in heavy winds. You can easily furl in a jib to get it to storm jib size when needed. Granted, the shape of the sail won't be ideal, but IMO beats going up on deck to hank on the storm jib, and in such conditions, ideal sail shape isn't as big of a deal.

I think the partially rolled genny is too big a compromise in sail shape, so I'll stick with he jib for now. Perhaps a reefing genoa, say 135% or even 125% may be a good sail choice when it's time to replace the jib.

[Octaman]

Hi guys,

It has been very interesting reading all your posts.

-----

Scott

To me, it looks like your spi is too big for the boat.
The colours make me believe it is the stock asymmetrical that Doyle make for the Macs, but this one really looks oversized.
Maybe you can have the luff shortened a bit. Ask your sailmaker.

With the head of the sail completely hoisted and the running tack trimmed to the limit you should be able to get your spi luff almost in line with your forestay. You probably may never use it so tight, but only then do you have complete control over the shape of the sail.

I agree to having a dedicated spi halyard attached just above the forestay fixing point on the mast.
On my Mac, I personally prefer the compromise than the extra weight of the gear, (block, halyard etc)

---------

Frank C

Thank you for noticing my incorrect profile!
How did I get that one wrong !?!?!?!?

My outboard is certainly a Suzuki 70hp 4-stroke and the reason I chose the Suzuki and not a Honda or a Yamaha is because the Suzuki was the only engine that had fuel injection at the time of my purchase. All the others had carbs. Fuel injection is more reliable. And that is more important when you are out there.

I'm thinking of downsizing from roller furled 135 Genny to a standard hank-on jib.

You will definitely benefit in upwind performance and probably the right choice if you sail in gusty conditions most of the time.

--------

delevi

The asymmetrical is not very good for dead downwind sailing (180 degrees) or anything close to that. The sail will stall because it is shadowed by the main.
You are better off with the wind on the quarter, let's say around 135 degrees or closer to a broad reach. If your destination is downwind, don't hesitate to put in a few gybes but always keeping the wind on the quarter so you maintain boatspeed.
You will get there faster, because you will have averaged a good VMG (velocity made good)

Now, if you can 'pole out' the tack of the a-spi, then it becomes a whole different story. But our boats don't have that option.
An idea for a mod? Perhaps, if you feel that is what you are lacking.
I personally like the the simplicity of the a-spi for cruising.

The a-spi will pull the boat along very well in light air on a close reach (60 to 70 degrees). You can point higher, but speed will start to drop and if you point too high leeway will be excessive on a Mac.

--------

Lease

You sound disappointed with your Mac.
What made you buy it in the first place.

As I have said in another thread, this a boat with dual characteristics. Such a contraption cannot excel either as a sailboat or as a powerboat.
But the Mac is one hull-of-a-good 'compromise'. When viewed from this angle this superior little boat will exceed your expectations.

Happy Sailing and good luck Lease with your race.

Octaman

P.S. Either way, the a-spi is great fun and makes sailing possible in very light winds.

[Octaman]

It may help to tell you how I sail my mac

The foreward V-berth is not a 'cabin' on my boat. I never take six in total anyway.
The V-matresses have been removed and the entire forward space functions as a 'sail locker'

When I go forward to prepare a sail to be hoisted, I always open the forward hatch and sit on deck with my legs dangling inside.
This gives me good stability, even in rough weather and minimizes the risk of slipping or going overboard.

The sail gradually comes out on deck, section by section as it gets hanked on to the forestay. Sheets are always tied to the pulpit, so I just reach out for them and tie them to the clew of the sail.

From this position I can also attach the halyard that is waiting attached to the forepeak.

Once everything is set, I make my move.
I get up, go to the mast and hoist the sail.
Half of it is on deck, the other half comes out of the hatch beautifully.

The process is reversed when I need to get the sail down.
The tricky part is to take the halyard in hand (doesn't matter if it slackens a bit, as long as you don't drop), take the seated position at the hatch with legs inside the boat and only then start dropping the sail, controlably with one hand, while with the other you help the sail find its way belowdecks through the hatch and not into the water.

It takes some practise but is a very safe technique especially if you are single-handing.

Happy Sailing!

Octaman

[Lease]

You sound disappointed with your Mac.
What made you buy it in the first place.

Absolutely not disappointed. Sorry to convey a negative impression.

I would echo your own views on the dual capabilities and that they constitute the answer to the second part of your question. The family (2+2) lived and crusied on the boat for a week over Christmas, and it was fabulous. Never been so comfortable on a cruise -ever. As for the motoring capability, the six mile re-supply trips were no hassle at all.

I just like sailing too much to not want to get the best that I can reasonably expect.

It is clear I think to most people, that the boat, no, I'll restrict myself to the rig, is built down to a price. It sails, but it doesn't sail well. I will be happy when I can get the rig setup right, and some decently cut sails. However, to prove that I'm a convert, it all has to work with the bimini and autopilot, and the stereo playing (gasp) Country Music!

I promote the boat at every opportunity because due to that low 'in' price in the States, we can import your used cast-offs in numbers and the fleet is expanding rapidly. Check it out:


Aussie Macs for Sale @ $60,000!

....I'll be quiet now.

[Scott]

I disagree, I only have a jib halyard, no spin halyard. We layed out the mast and boom on the ground this year to do calcs for re rigging as necessary. The one big change we are going to mak is putting a dedicated halyard 1' higher. It will stretch the luff tight if we choose. Yes it is the stock doyle a-sail.



Even without a pole it can be done and is quite stable. I agree in anything but the lightest wind you make far better time gybing and keeping both sails on the same side. We pole out wing on wing regurlarly with our dock hook. The point through the clew and prop it against the gooseneck with a lanyard. I am going to put a track on the mast and a Pole end on the handle side this year.

I know this was a thread about reg jibs and Gennies and the spinnaker question was about upwind performance but I halfta say........ the asym spin on a Mac can and (on our boat ) is used regularly in fairly stiff winds. Ive had mine up in beam reaches in up to 10+ mph puffs and broad up to 15+++. This is not for the faint of heart and I dont recomend it until you have many light wind miles under your sheets but weve run downwind with it and left a little rooster tail in our wake, what a rush. Ive been fortunate not to blow it out yet but thats a surety. Not if but when.

[Hamin' X]

It is clear I think to most people, that the boat, no, I'll restrict myself to the rig, is built down to a price. It sails, but it doesn't sail well.

I think that it is unfair to the mac to say that it doesn't sail well because it is "built down to a price". The boat was designed from the ground(water?) up to not sail, or motor, well.

The squared off transom is necessary for planning performance under power, but detracts mightily from the sailing performance. The rest of the hull is a compromise that leans a little toward motoring, further detracting from the sailing aspect.

The weight of the boat has been kept to a minimum, for easier trailering and sail performance. This limits the speed that the boat is able to be driven through the water, due to hull stresses from the pounding. Thus the limiting it to 50 Hp.

The high freeboard is necessary for the standing room, but is the number one reason that the boat has trouble pointing. This, also hampers it's ability to cross over the wind when coming about during a tack.

Roger could have built the boat up to a much higher price but, doing so would narrow the market and would have added little to the performance of the boat. The boat is designed to the point of diminishing return. Adding to either the sail, or motoring performance becomes very expensive and better left to the owner in the customization process. In this manner each owner can build his boat up to his own price point.

Rich---Hamin' X---N7ZH

[Octaman]

Scott, dear friend.

In the first photos you put up you have the main and the spi on the same tack. We were talking about going downwind with this configuration.

In the second very nice photo you have posted, you are sailing goosewinged! Different story!
With the main on one tack and the spi on the other, you will have both sails full and will be faster going dead downwind compared to both sails on the same tack. Steering becomes more critical but with experience, as you seem to have, this no longer is a problem.

----------
Lease

I did not mean to intimidate you; apologies.
We don't want you to be quiet. We need to hear your 'voice'
We are all constantly learning
----------

Hamin X

Very well saidl; I back you up one hundred percent.

In many of these threads, authors get carried away forgetting what the boat really is and what she is built for.
One has to put all parametres in perspective.
Still, I feel this is the best site for Mac owners that want to eploit the merits of their boats!

I vote for the Mac; it's a wonderful boat.

Happy Sailing to all!

Octaman

[Scott]

Octaman, I understand your point. I could be mistaken but it is also what I had said / typed. The pic with both sails on the same side is in fact going Upwind. Yes the wing on pic is downwind and I agreed with you that it is quicker to gybe than to go direct downwind. My disagreement was only that wing on was not poss pole-less.

Sorry for redundant posting folks.

[delevi]

The asymmetrical is not very good for dead downwind sailing (180 degrees) or anything close to that. The sail will stall because it is shadowed by the main.

Octaman,
What if you run wing & wing? Do you still need a whisker pole?

Now, if you can 'pole out' the tack of the a-spi, then it becomes a whole different story. But our boats don't have that option.

Sure they do. I bought a Forespar whishker pole. 6' extendable to 12' It has a clip on each end and a plastic padeye which installs at the front of the mast about 4-5 feet above deck level. Works great on a jib while sailing wing & wing. I haven't tried it on the spinnaker, and not sure if the 12' lenght is enough. I hope the a-spin can go downwind without collapsing without the whisker pole if you pull the mainsail in or wing out to the other side. Anyone try this?

[maddmike]

While I don't advocate this as the 'best' answer for poling your poleless spin., I have on occasion in very light air on a rolly sea (on crossings & out of boredom) taken my lower full batten out of the main, bunged it to the stick and used it as a pole. If nothing else it keeps the kite inflated and gives you something to play with. MM