Disconnecting Engine Linkage

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Frank C

Post by Frank C »

normo wrote:Sailboat designers and racing skippers go to great length$ to reduce drag and therefore sail faster.
Norm,
The essential difference in this case is the "designer" especially as regards the big square transom of the 26X. Just one opinion, but I can hear that giant, sucking transom when under sail! ... I don't leave the entire motor dragging in the water, but it's mainly to avoid the accusation that it's running, since the Suzuki is quieter than the transom! (and, I liked your following comments ... )

"Claims of large speed differences with engine up/down, mast rotated/straight ahead are very suspect. In my opinion it is next to impossible to measure accurate speed differences using a gps or knotmeter as their read outs are constantly fluctuating ..."
=> A "truism," for sure!


"Did your speed increase? If the answer is yes then your boat is special . .
lower the engine, continue dragging the pail and leave the others behind."
:D :D
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They Theirs
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Post by They Theirs »

Were all aware of the structural enhancements Roger created in the introduction of the M. Unquestionably one of the most significant of these was to shrink the Motor Well gap to reinforce the hull. The benefit of raising the cabin entrance and cockpit floor from the Motor-Well was not only to prevent a following sea from entering, but enhanced the design by expanding the rear birth while eliminating the broad motor well platform necessary for the exposed rudder and outboard steering linkage. The overall benefits have cleared the passageway and improved the footing when boarding from the dock or ladder. Removing the steering hazards and problems at the same time as upgrading the rudders, pivots, and moving them inboard for protection, and provide enhanced reliability


Moe wrote:
That's not a back porch: (it's called a motor well)
THIS is a back porch:
Moe
Thats not a Back Porch:
Its a Support System for a Gauntlet of Problematic Rudders & Steering Linkage!

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Clean Motor Well/Back Porch of the M Model
Last edited by They Theirs on Sun Jan 22, 2006 5:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Moe »

They Theirs wrote:Were all aware of the structural enhancements Roger created in the introduction of the M. Unquestionably one of the most significant of these was to shrink the Motor Well gap to reinforce the hull. The benefit of raising the cabin entrance and cockpit floor from the Motor-Well was not only to prevent a following sea from entering...
The 26X is just as narrow and restrictive to a following sea, but that part, as well as the helm seat, is ahead of the motor well. Note:

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Click on the image to view it at its original size

The motorwell has the "back porch" on either side of it, and all are behind the helm seat.

Note that there is room to board and stand up on the "porch" next to the motor even if the helm seat is closed, as it is in this picture. One can stand on the porch and open the helm seat. There's no reason to step on the rudder linkage, especially considering there's more room for footing in front of the motor well than is occupied by a Honda EU2000. The ladder is on the port side but I had it off here.

The liner gives the hull the same strength. I've found no record of an X hull failing in this area in the archives. My personal preference is to have the linkage visible and accessible.
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They Theirs
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It Must Be My Lying Eyes!

Post by They Theirs »

It Must Be My Lying Eyes!
Moe wrote:
There's no reason to step on the rudder linkage, especially considering there's more room for footing in front of the motor
The motorwell has the "back porch" on either side of it, and all are behind the helm seat. My personal preference is to have the linkage visible and accessible.
(From The Manufacturer)
The transom, with its smaller opening and rounded corners, makes a big improvement in the view from the rear.
Much of the rudder system is inside the boat, offering less clutter on the transom.
The good looks came at a fairly small price. The transom opening is smaller and not quite as easy to pass through.
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A DEEPER V SHAPE IN THE BOTTOM OF THE HULL
The new hull has a deeper V bottom (15 degrees), rather than the flatter bottom of the older boat (8 degrees).
The purpose of the deep V shape is to give the boat a softer ride under power, with less slamming against choppy seas.
It also provides a moderate reduction in wetted surface, which benefits the boats sailing ability.
The V bottom has softer corners at the transom, and, at typical angles of heel,
the corners dig in less and create a less turbulent wake.
The deeper V bottom keeps the boat from sliding around on the trailer, and gives better tracking under power.
The more pronounced centerline ridge provides a stiffer hull bottom.
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IMPROVED RUDDERS
The rudders fore and aft adjustment allows precise tuning. It is possible to set the rudder rake to completely eliminate rudder load on the wheel. (However, a slight weather helm is better for upwind control.)
The rudders are larger than those on the X, and have a more efficient elliptical tip.
With the deeper V hull, the upwind rudder is less likely to be raised out of the water when the boat heels.
With the deeper V on the new boat, the transom corners dont dig in as much when the boat is healed over, and
the wake is a lot cleaner. This means less drag.
With the new hull and rudder shapes, the boat has less tendency to round up into the wind when heeled far over.

STRENGTH
Moe wrote:
The liner gives the hull the same strength. I've found no record of an X hull failing in this area in the archives.
We have added an extra layer of fiberglass mat and roving to the underwater area of the hull. This adds about 120 pounds, and adds to both stiffness and stability. The deck has more beams, between the liner and the deck, and feels stiffer under foot.
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COCKPIT
The cockpit seats are about the same length as those of the 26X, and slightly wider.
The seat area across the front of the cockpit (where the mainsheet traveler is located), gives more seating area,
but reduces the footwell floor area. To make up for the loss of foot room, we have mounted the pedestal on a stainless steel column (4" in diameter).
This replaces the large fiberglass box that went all the way to the floor, taking up a lot of foot space.
The footwell is narrower,
to allow more room in the big berth underneath, and gives a better spacing to brace your feet against when the boat is heeled over.

The steering seat is similar to the one in the older boat, but is about 6" higher. This allows room for the outboard motor to be under the seat, rather than behind it, and puts the captain up higher with a better view over the cabin top. The cockpit cushions are improved and more comfortable. The inside sofa seat back cushions can be used, when sailing, as cockpit seat back cushions.
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A MORE USABLE REAR BERTH
Improving the rear berth was a major design goal.
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By moving the head forward, we were able to gain access to the rear berth from the starboard side.
The head occupied the most usable part of the old boats interior, and is now a lot less obtrusive forward of the mast.

(The down side of this is a slightly smaller head with 2" less headroom.)
By shortening the footwell in the cockpit, by running the seats across behind the cabin entry,
we were able to provide much more room in the rear berth, and make it a lot easier to get into
.
By narrowing the footwell, we were able to make the rear berth look enormous.
When you are standing in cabin, you are looking clear back to the transom

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MORE HEADROOM
Headroom is a full 6 feet under the closed sliding hatch, and 5 10" under the cabin near the galley. Headroom is also increased over the rear berth.
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SMALLER CABIN ENTRY
Moe wrote:
The 26X is just as narrow and restrictive to a following sea, but that part, as well as the helm seat, is ahead of the motor well.
Raising the bottom edge of the cabin entry not only made the rear berth more accessible, but lessened the chance of flooding the cabin in the event the cockpit was filled with a severe following sea.
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Note:
(1) The cabin entry on the "M" is at the knees of crew
(2) The cabin entry on the "X" is at the feet of the crew.

Also notice the much better hull design providing a better sailboat shape.
We also made the side decks wider, making it easier to get to the foredeck.
The height of the toe rails on the cabin top have been increased.

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ENGINES
There is no change in the engine mounting system, or the type of engines that can be used.
We have, however, widened the engine well area to allow easier bolting of the engine to the transom.
The transom is now flush, and a pad wont be needed between the motor and the transom.

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Moe wrote:
Since we'd like to cruise with another couple, or our grown kids, I was glad to find out that later models eliminate the step and use a fold-up ladder for better aft berth access in the center
As soon as we got home, we headed to the MacGregor website to see about buying one. What a disappointment! A new boat, with some really neat stuff, like a deeper-V, taller mast/sails, no backstay, 33% more fuel capacity, dual batteries, sliding galley, and a higher companionway door with a step outside for better headroom accessing the aft bunks from the center. My wife even liked the tan interior gelcoat and some of the wood (I still prefer the white and black Star Trek shuttlecraft look of the X).
With the additional headroom of the higher companionway and step of the M, having the galley able to slide forward to the original X location might not be required to access the aft berth. But it might be nice.
The bottom of the companionway is pretty high, as is the step up to it. In fact, the step is as high as the seats, a BIG step up to a longer distance down to the cabin sole. That's the price of the potential added headroom in the forward center of the aft berth. The depth of the step does eat up some cockpit sole.
Finally, we get to the aft berth. It appears huge from the salon. We measured the cushions at about 75" long, except in the center where they lose 2" to the battery box lid. They're about 70" wide, just 2" shy of king bed width. It's a full rectangle with no intrusion from hull supports. In the center, below the cockpit sole, and in the aft area, there's 20" of room above the uncompressed pad. On either side of the cockpit sole, and below the companionway, there's 34" of headroom above the uncompressed pad or battery box lid. The forward sections have a narrow section fully outboard, with even more headroom. The aft berth is definitely the adult sized accomodation in the M.
Duane Dunn, Allegro wrote:
The rear berth access is still far better than any 'X'. The Exterior and the cockpit are the same, but if you take a tape and measure you will find the difference be the cockpit sizes are mainly perceptions, not true measurements. Take one more look at the '05 before you give up on it.
Paul S wrote:
We were in the same boat (literally) as you. Looked at the M (03/04 layout) with the limousine interior. Then we looked at some X models. We were sold on the open feel of the M. Did not like the location of the head on the X - takes up too much valuable real estate. The head on the M is fine. I agree..the 05 design with the fiberglass shelf is a buzz kill - makes the xcapacity head too tall. Guess you could cut a hole in it. I am pretty sure it is not structural.
Can not comment on the new Transformer-style interior of the 05 M, but the 03/04 fits our needs great. No way would I ever put more than 4 people on any X or M for any extended time.
From what I understand the M has more layers of fiberglass than the X, so it should feel sturdier.
Tony D-26X_SusieQ wrote:
As Duane so well described, the 2005 model is more like the "X" interior than the 2003 and 2004 model "M"'s were. If you still prefer the "X" model there will probably be some X owners deciding to move up to the '05 M for the improved sailing characterists and the new more cruiser friendly interior. That will make more X modles available on the previously owned market. Don't be afraid to consider a used X. They age very well.
Mark Prouty wrote:
New 26M interior A substantial improvement IMHO.
Last edited by They Theirs on Mon Jan 23, 2006 8:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Scott
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Post by Scott »

Funny stuff this, The XvsM debate has been had, Lame. Face it, they are 2 different yet similar boats. Each has its pluses and minuses. Seems whichever you own is going to be the one you like best. Bah humbug.

Knock it off you two. I dont care if you like the X or M more. Seems these posts are primarily subjective. To say one motor well is better or one steering linkage setup is superior means nothing. That is your opinion, not something you get to fight over or win in an arguememnt. Now if you say your well is 27" across and post a pic of a tape rule in it by god you win.

I see pics posted of boats to re-enforce the arguement one way or another, mine included. Are they representetive of all X's or M's no. For instance the pic of the dirty motor well on an X. Are all X motor wells dirty, Are all M motor wells clean. C'mon guys!! be fo' real. lets get back to calling each other names and quit baggin on each others boat.

Wasnt this thread about the wisdom or benefits of disconnecting engine linkag and not on the merits of one boat over another??
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Post by Mark Prouty »

Let's end the X vs M debate and hijacking this thread.

At least debating politics could be fun!

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aya16
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Post by aya16 »

Actually They theirs post was very good and he was able to do a nice job showing the diff. between the two boats. It also took alot of time to do this.
Im sure that some may not like the what was posted but I can see a real interesting post for the new guys interested in seeing the diff. I dont think anyone was saying that one boat was far better then the other but showed some real nice stuff about the M.

Instead of searching all over these pages for that info all the new guy has to do is look at the post. Good job they theirs.

Besides these pages are getting a little dry, and needed something to get the interest going.

I look forward to Moes large, full response. That we all know is coming.
There isnt any more debate the new boat buyer doesnt have a choice they will have to buy an M. They might as well feel good about what they bought.

Every year the choice will get slimmer as the X will get older, someday it will be a classic and hard to find. I like the way the X looks and Im sure the fun factor with that boat is the same as the M. But someone new that wants a new boat should be able to get from these pages a good perspective and not have to feel guilty about buying the M. I dont.....
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Post by baldbaby2000 »

One of They Theirs figures shows the top of the 26M top as sitting higher above the water (more freeboard) than the X. Does anyone know the difference in the 2 boats? I was rafted up with a 26X last summer, they had a refrigerator and 4 people on board. We had 2 people on our board with our normal load of junk and the top of our sliding hatch actually seemed lower than theirs.

We'll be at the Denver boat show this evening hanging around the Anchorage display.
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Post by Scott »

Aya, My intention was not to offend or judge, merely to deter any "my boat can beat up your boat" stuff.

I apologize to you and Moe and they theirs, OOps did I mention names? But maybe I was reading a different thread or I misunderstood the meaning behind posts generally put up after page 5 like this one:


They said
Moe wrote:
Quote:
That's not a back porch: (it's called a motor well)
THIS is a back porch:

Moe
Thats not a Back Porch:
Its a Support System for a Gauntlet of Problematic Rudders & Steering Linkage!
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Post by They Theirs »

"Back to Reality"

A Few More Chips for Dipping

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Brian26x wrote:
This is our first year sailing our 26X. It has been a great time. We even did the North Channel cruise with the Trailer Sailors. I have noticed that while under sail, the steering feels lighter when I leave the motor down. The GPS reads about a 1/2 a knot gain with the motor tilted up out of the water. I was just wondering if most people tilt the motor up when under sail?
Dimitri-2000X-Tampa wrote:
Unless I am just on a short sail in between motoring sessions I tilt my motor up and out of there. The gain in speed is significant enough for me to do it.
Compromise wrote:
I like it tilted up when under sail, due to less drag in the water. As you noted yourself, a half knot gain!
Several on the board including myself have installed a wing nut that can be quickly unscrewed to take the motor out of the steering linkage equation while under sail. This gives the wheel a lighter feel when controlling direction in addition to tilting it up (motor) to reduce drag.
Moe wrote:
I tilt it up under sail, but if you're a forgetful old fart like me, pull the key out of the ignition every time you do, lest you start the motor tilted up, and damage the impeller.
RichandLori wrote:
Not only do I raise it (1/2 knot gain), I also usually disconnect it from the steering. I like the helm feel a lot better without the Honda 50 flopping around. Interesting that some don't see that much difference in having the motor up or down. This weekend I measured 0.4 knots difference in speed with the motor up vs down. I wonder if the hull design differences in the X vs. M contribute to the difference in speed with engine up/down? Anyway, it was a great sail, but the point of the story is that .2-.4 knots can be a lot or little depending on your point of view. Normally I wouldn't care, but when I had a chance to make a "good showing" for a MacM, I did all I could short of tossing the Admiral overboard.
Me Mine wrote:
Driving with the Brake On In the Blow Boater World those 0.1 or 0.2 incremental speed increase are huge, and free. To get that much gain from new sails or reconditioning the hull and appendages would qualify as big boat bucks. Ill admit that leaving the engine down in situations or just being lazy is personal preference, but I for one can feel the drag, even if it is in my mind knowing I have left the engine in the water. It is like dragging your sheets. We are all guilty of brain fade or mistakes, but I like to think my sailing skills have provided me with the same ability as driving my car, and I dont leave the brake on, or drive on deflated tires. Cruising Sailors pay big bucks for those folding propellers to gain a significant incremental boat speed and no racer would fail to align his propeller shaft to fold the prop when engaging opponents. I find myself trimming sheets and changing my angle of attack on the main to perform better with sailboats when being passed or passing, as any good sailor would
Graham Carr wrote:
I like to tilt my engine up while sailing. Moes recommendation of pulling the key sounds good, I think Ill start doing this. Also I disconnect my engine when sailing. I only disconnect the engine when I am in open sailing areas and long runs. The engine is locked in the dead ahead position. I do this up to 5 knots. I always reconnect the engine to the steering before heading into busy waters or port.
Terry wrote:
I have to agree with Rich as I have the same setup, Honda 50 on '03M. I have a quick pin on my linkage, lets me do the switch in 10-30 seconds.

Divecoz wrote:
Terry I like the quick pin idea . . I have a spring that puts pressure on the articulating joint that seems to help for some reason steering seems more "true " less "slop" and for some reason it doesn't flop at all or hasn't anyway.
Chip Hindes wrote:
I tilt mine up to reduce drag. I know it is reduced, but very much doubt the improvement is any where near 1/2 knot.
For some time I've been brainstorming a way to quick disconnect the motor from the steering linkage; if I can't come up with something that takes no more than 5-6 seconds and requires no tools, I won't do it.
DLT wrote:
Don't you dare call me, or anyone else, lazy for leaving the motor in the water while sailing!
I leave it down because the PROs outweight the CONs...
PROs
Ready to go at a moment's notice
Don't have to worry about starting it out of the water
No need to disconnect/reconnect it to the steering
Don't have steering/heeling issues with it connected
CONs
loose .1-.4 knots - So what, I'm in no hurry... My Mac isn't a race boat...
delevi wrote:
I disconnect mine. I get .5-.75 knots gain. The feel of the helm is also much better. I replaced the screw which attached the engine to the steering bar with a hitch pin. My boat came with a bolt on the port side of the transom with a small nut. I simply pull the hitch pin, pull out the engine linkage and drop it over the transom bolt. I then secure it with the nut. This keeps the engine dead center so it doesn't flop around when the boat heels. The whole process takes about 15 seconds. No tools. If you need to power up in a hurry, you can still tilt down the engine and steer with the rudders, even with the engine locked dead center. The one problem with this is the range of the rudders is limited to one side, since the steering bar, when protrudes enough, comes in contact with the engine linkage and keeps it form going over too far. You still get sufficient control and I have used the engine a few times to get out of trouble without having to re-connect. In rough water, the boat is actually more stable with the engine down. Not sure why that is.
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Don n Cheri
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Post by Don n Cheri »

Chip Said:
Agree completely with Bill. The disconnect I'm working on has to work with one hand and take no more than a few seconds. I'm thinking something with a ball detent pin. Push the button with your thumb while lifting the motor link from the rudder linkage, put it on the sorage bracket.

Same for the reverse.

Rick Said:
Chip, you just described Bill's motor disconnect exactly...
_________________
Rick

I just came from BWY where I "stop watched" time to change out the steering connection to the fixed position. Now being an :macx: guy and unfamiliar with all the complex workings of the new fangled :macm: I figure it would take me longer than any :macm: owner.

Facing the Captains seat I started my stop watch:

Step 1: lift the seat out on the way and it hit the rail kinda hard (Ray gave me that look)
Step 2: waddle aft to the back porch
Step 3: bend over and locate the quick disconnect
Step 4: grabbed it with my Right hand
Step 5: pulled to the starboard side
Step 6: lifted the connecting rod up
Step 7: moved the rod to the parking pin
Step 8: tried to put it on the pin but it didnt go on
Step 9: Ray said wiggle the motor
Step 10: I still couldnt get it to fit and knelt down
Step 11: Ray said pull the release ring back again (dummy)
Step 12: pulled the ring back the connecting rod dropped on the parking lug
Step 13: stood up and waddled backwards
Step 14: lowered the Captains seat
Step 15: stopped the timmer

Total time for an :macx: guy to disconnect the :macm: motor steering linkage

14.35 seconds

Reversing the procedure and recording the time for the same process

9.14 seconds

With a bit of practical hands on experience I think the time could go WAY down.

My :macx: has the linkage already (BWY installed it when the originally sold the boat new) so I ordered the parking lug portion.

So for those that want the motor off the linkage its a great option. It holds the motor straight and the rudders can steer while I get ready to be a sailboat.

It was pretty cool, switching back and forth was quick and painless.


don
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Post by Catigale »

People are reporting 0.1 to 0.75 kt gain by raising the motors in the chosen examples in the post above...I wonder what an experimental variance of that size would mean to someone with some statistical training?
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Post by They Theirs »

Catigale

Catigale wrote:
People are reporting 0.1 to 0.75 kt gain by raising the motors in the chosen examples in the post above...I wonder what an experimental variance of that size would mean to someone with some statistical training?
Maybe we can bring in Dennis Conners to bring a professional atmosphere to the benefits of "Tilting & Disconnecting"
(sounds like something we do in a bar?) rather than allow some bean counter to practice his 9 keys?
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Post by Catigale »

We need Dennis on this one about as much as we need Einstein to solve the harmonic oscillator eigenfunctions but I digress....
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Post by They Theirs »

Catigale
Catigale wrote:
We need Dennis on this one about as much as we need Einstein to solve the harmonic oscillator eigenfunctions but I digress....
Its possible youre digressing for the considerable conflict brought about by submersion and understanding of dissimilar coefficients of resistance .
Dennis only used eigenfunctions on long runs after a chili surprise, but then Alberts favorite form of recreation was sailing on his boat "Tinef" (Yiddish for "junk"). It was small, maybe about 15 feet or so, and very unprepossessing.
One day he decided to sail to visit a friends grandfather. That was a fairly long trip. The Friends Grandfather got a call in the morning that Albert was on his way.
The afternoon dragged on; no sign of. Albert The grandfather began to be worried: Albert couldn't swim. The sun was setting and still no word. Finally, he got a call from a local policeman, saying that there was this weird-looking guy who needed a haircut wandering the beach and asking for David Rothman.
(One time, Albert actually fell into the water and had to be rescued by a teenager who had been passing by and heard his calls for help. The kid left and didn't even tell his name.)
Albert and his friends grandfather met for the last time in 1946, with Albert saying, "I have had the most wonderful summers of my entire life, and this I owe to your initiative." And every year, the friends grandfather sent him a pair of sandals.
Im sure Einstein the Sailor would more than approve of Dennis!
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