Leon,
I've done both, but for the extra time it takes I've not found adequate benefit.
From reading about the issues you described, it's obviously different on the X than on your boat - seems maybe easier on mine, but still not worth the effort.
Disconnecting Engine Linkage
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Catigale
- Site Admin
- Posts: 10421
- Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 5:59 pm
- Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
- Location: Admiral .............Catigale 2002X.......Lots of Harpoon Hobie 16 Skiffs....Island 17
- Contact:
Just to give you an idea about how turbulent the 
transom is - I was sailing on Nantucket sound two summers ago, my customers hat flew off into water, and I thought "Great - another expense to explain to Accounting... 
"
A few moments later I looked down and there was the hat, following the boat through 3 foot chop - it stayed there long enough to go below, get a boat hook, and pick it up (I belayed his idea to reach off the transom while under sail)
The definitely drags a volume of water which is a sizeable fraction of a cubic meter in my crude estimation. Thats hundreds of kg of water....it makes complete sense to me that sticking a prop and skeg into this mass has no impact on the speed of the boat. You could stick a bucket down there too FWIW.
Blue hulls and
s Mileage May Vary
transom is - I was sailing on Nantucket sound two summers ago, my customers hat flew off into water, and I thought "Great - another expense to explain to Accounting... "A few moments later I looked down and there was the hat, following the boat through 3 foot chop - it stayed there long enough to go below, get a boat hook, and pick it up (I belayed his idea to reach off the transom while under sail)
The
definitely drags a volume of water which is a sizeable fraction of a cubic meter in my crude estimation. Thats hundreds of kg of water....it makes complete sense to me that sticking a prop and skeg into this mass has no impact on the speed of the boat. You could stick a bucket down there too FWIW.Blue hulls and
s Mileage May Vary-
Chip Hindes
- Admiral
- Posts: 2166
- Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 6:13 am
- Location: West Sand Lake, NY '01X, "Nextboat" 50HP Tohatsu
Leon:
I was going to explain this earlier but I got so wrapped up in the other part of the discussion I completely forgot.
Like Frank, I don't currently disconnect the motor when it's tilted up. But unlike Frank, my motor tends to flop to leeward when heeled, giving the same effect as a strong lee helm. I don't like it at all.
Before I installed the autopilot, my steering was loose enough that it was a serious problem even when moderately heeled. Tightening up the pivot adjustment screw on the motor made the steering tighter, but not enough to eliminate the problem, and the stock Detmar brand Mac steering gear is nearly legendary for its tendency to fail due to overload. I've not yet had a problem with mine, though I appear to be in the minority, but I still don't believe believe this to be a suitable solution.
The installation of the Raymarine ST4000 autopilot provided enough additional friction to the system that it is now only a problem when the heel is substantial, maybe more than it should be, indicating I've waited too long to reef. But I still don;t like it and want to correct it.
So why don't I disconnect? I have yet to find a suitable system that is quick enough and convenient enough that I'm willing to live with. The original giant ring ding is way too slow, and I just don't like the idea of replacing a ring ding with a hitch pin or similar. It still takes too long and is not acceptable. I'm working on somethng better.
I was going to explain this earlier but I got so wrapped up in the other part of the discussion I completely forgot.
Like Frank, I don't currently disconnect the motor when it's tilted up. But unlike Frank, my motor tends to flop to leeward when heeled, giving the same effect as a strong lee helm. I don't like it at all.
Before I installed the autopilot, my steering was loose enough that it was a serious problem even when moderately heeled. Tightening up the pivot adjustment screw on the motor made the steering tighter, but not enough to eliminate the problem, and the stock Detmar brand Mac steering gear is nearly legendary for its tendency to fail due to overload. I've not yet had a problem with mine, though I appear to be in the minority, but I still don't believe believe this to be a suitable solution.
The installation of the Raymarine ST4000 autopilot provided enough additional friction to the system that it is now only a problem when the heel is substantial, maybe more than it should be, indicating I've waited too long to reef. But I still don;t like it and want to correct it.
So why don't I disconnect? I have yet to find a suitable system that is quick enough and convenient enough that I'm willing to live with. The original giant ring ding is way too slow, and I just don't like the idea of replacing a ring ding with a hitch pin or similar. It still takes too long and is not acceptable. I'm working on somethng better.
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Terry
- Admiral
- Posts: 1487
- Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 2:35 pm
- Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
- Location: Vancouver, B.C. Canada. '03 26M - New Yamaha 70
Disconnect
By the sounds of it, some of the other boats steering linkage is substantially different from what I have. Basically all I have is a about a 1.5 inch stud sticking up with a small hole through which to insert a ring ding or quick pin. I simply pull the quick pin out of the steering linkage, place the steering linkage over the stud and insert the quick pin and the engine is locked in place. Takes all of ten seconds, ditto for reconnecting, there is a similar stud on the connecting arm, simply pull the quick pin, lift the steering linkage off one stud and slip it over the other and insert the quick pin. Absolutely no need for the BWY system, mine works great.
The difference in load on the steering system is phenomenal, much easier to steer and much more responsive, the Admiral is at the helm 90% of the time and she really likes it.
The difference in load on the steering system is phenomenal, much easier to steer and much more responsive, the Admiral is at the helm 90% of the time and she really likes it.
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Richard O'Brien
- Captain
- Posts: 653
- Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 8:20 am
- Location: Lakewood, CO. Mercury 60hp bigfoot M0427B404
I used BWY's basic setup, and was advised that it wouldn't work without some changes. I had to shorten the 3/8" arm and re-thread it. Then I used a stainless hinge to hold it while disconnected. The BWY quick spring loaded disconnects are the key, and I haven't found anything similiar online like them.delevi wrote:Quite the controversy!
For those who do disconnect and don't use BWY's system, what do you use? I believe their system only works on a handful of engines. Basically, any ideas on an easy disconnect setup that wont trash the side of the transom
Here is what I intend to try...
They look to be a real close match to the BWY solution. Obviously, this is designed to slave a kicker motor to the main motor. But, it should work might work fine for attaching the motor to any of our steering systems.
I have one, but have yet to actually install it...
They look to be a real close match to the BWY solution. Obviously, this is designed to slave a kicker motor to the main motor. But, it should work might work fine for attaching the motor to any of our steering systems.
I have one, but have yet to actually install it...
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Don T
- Admiral
- Posts: 1084
- Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2004 7:13 pm
- Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
- Location: 95 2600 "SS OTTER" - Portland OR - Tohatsu 50 - Hull#64 (May 95)
Hello:
The amount of back eddy is dependent on how deep the transom sits. Only the surface water will be sucked forward. The water below the bottom of the hull (except for the tear zone) is stationary. The motor and prop sit deep into the stationary water (which it has to if it is to be efficient driving the boat forward). It makes sense that each boat will have a different depth depending on the motor weight and boat loading practices. Results will vary greatly. Personally, my hat slid off the transom, aided by my sons foot, and spent no time caught in the back eddy. It just floated there in one spot as we left it in our wake. I did not retrieve it because we were in a narrow pass with a ferry coming on quick. My boat sits bow low when sailing.
The amount of back eddy is dependent on how deep the transom sits. Only the surface water will be sucked forward. The water below the bottom of the hull (except for the tear zone) is stationary. The motor and prop sit deep into the stationary water (which it has to if it is to be efficient driving the boat forward). It makes sense that each boat will have a different depth depending on the motor weight and boat loading practices. Results will vary greatly. Personally, my hat slid off the transom, aided by my sons foot, and spent no time caught in the back eddy. It just floated there in one spot as we left it in our wake. I did not retrieve it because we were in a narrow pass with a ferry coming on quick. My boat sits bow low when sailing.
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Frank C
Yeah - my motor don't flop!
Don't know why, but it doesn't. It simply stays where the wheel places it. BUT, when trailing I try to remember to turn the wheel to either lock because road jounce WILL induce it to flop.
Terry, my X has the same kind of stud extending up from the rudder pivot as your M. But since it seems unnecessary, I don't bother disconnecting it. It's a hassle. I need to maneuver the helmseat past my split backstay, and bend WAY down to perform the disconnect, after which I need to fuss with the helm seat again. I need to do the same again at day's end, but it's frequently heavier conditions by that time. It's not a death struggle, but performing this dance, in chop, means another 3 or 4 minutes bobbing without way - definitely uncomfortable with your head swaying over green water. Odds are that I'll have forgotten until making a false start. I simply don't find that the motor impairs my steering system feel or operation.
For those who understand these hassles, but still need relief on the steering system, consider this alternative. Raise the motor only far enough to get the prop hub on the surface. The motor will be midway in its lift, imparting much less flop-inertia on your linkage. I sail like this in very heavy conditions simply to keep the motor skeg in the water - figuring that little extra fin might help to deter weather helm .... YMMV.
Don't know why, but it doesn't. It simply stays where the wheel places it. BUT, when trailing I try to remember to turn the wheel to either lock because road jounce WILL induce it to flop.
Terry, my X has the same kind of stud extending up from the rudder pivot as your M. But since it seems unnecessary, I don't bother disconnecting it. It's a hassle. I need to maneuver the helmseat past my split backstay, and bend WAY down to perform the disconnect, after which I need to fuss with the helm seat again. I need to do the same again at day's end, but it's frequently heavier conditions by that time. It's not a death struggle, but performing this dance, in chop, means another 3 or 4 minutes bobbing without way - definitely uncomfortable with your head swaying over green water. Odds are that I'll have forgotten until making a false start. I simply don't find that the motor impairs my steering system feel or operation.
For those who understand these hassles, but still need relief on the steering system, consider this alternative. Raise the motor only far enough to get the prop hub on the surface. The motor will be midway in its lift, imparting much less flop-inertia on your linkage. I sail like this in very heavy conditions simply to keep the motor skeg in the water - figuring that little extra fin might help to deter weather helm .... YMMV.
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Terry
- Admiral
- Posts: 1487
- Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 2:35 pm
- Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
- Location: Vancouver, B.C. Canada. '03 26M - New Yamaha 70
steering linkage pin
Frank,
Yes it is a deep bend down to the stud, and I usually do it with the engine down to keep the strain off the linkage. When it comes time to reconnect the engine is usually down again already in the water and running because I forgot to reconnect it. My wife is usually steering so the reconnect is done while under way. Since I have no backstay my wife simply sands to one side and steers while I quickly lift the seat, bend down and switch the linkage to the other stud. I 've learned to remember to put the engine down before starting but I am still working on remembering to reconnect. I'm not entirely sure I'd want to do this under single handed conditions but then I am not rigged for singlehanded sailing as yet, but I do plan to be in the future. Yes it is a hassle but when put to the test I can do it pretty fast. My wife, being the helmsperson finds it much easier on her arms when disconnected and she usually has the final say, so I get lots of practice.
Yes it is a deep bend down to the stud, and I usually do it with the engine down to keep the strain off the linkage. When it comes time to reconnect the engine is usually down again already in the water and running because I forgot to reconnect it. My wife is usually steering so the reconnect is done while under way. Since I have no backstay my wife simply sands to one side and steers while I quickly lift the seat, bend down and switch the linkage to the other stud. I 've learned to remember to put the engine down before starting but I am still working on remembering to reconnect. I'm not entirely sure I'd want to do this under single handed conditions but then I am not rigged for singlehanded sailing as yet, but I do plan to be in the future. Yes it is a hassle but when put to the test I can do it pretty fast. My wife, being the helmsperson finds it much easier on her arms when disconnected and she usually has the final say, so I get lots of practice.
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aya16
- Admiral
- Posts: 1362
- Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 6:29 am
- Location: LONG BEACH CALIF Mac M 04 WHITE
Before I bought the BWY solution to disconnect, I used the stock bolt and pin. I drilled the bolt to pin it so I didnt have to undue a nut everytime I disconnected. When blue water made available their disconnect I bought it because it made it a lot easier to disconnect. It fits the suzuki and the yamaha with out changing anything. And because the yamaha is the same as the merc. I would guess it would fit that too.
any one that has a Mac in my opinion should try sailing with the engine diconnected and locked in the straight position and up at least once. Then you can see for yourself the Diff. depending on recomendations from this board to disconnect or not and then never trying it yourself would be a big mistake. Why some people insist that either way there isnt a diff, blows me away. Either they never tried it or they are just arguementative for the sake of confusion. There is a wold of diff. between the two ways.
Speed and just a way better feeling at the helm. Those that try know.
Some times you have to wonder about the usefullness of this board
when someone asks a question and there are so many responces that just go against the grain of common sense, let alone confusing for the new guy. Any boat that you can take a couple hundred pounds of stress off the steering will benifit, any boat where you can lift the whole engine and prop out of the water will benifit. The auto pilot alone will work much better with the system diconnected. Problems of rounding up and the Mac not being able to steer a straight line under sail with out touching the wheel will all but end when you disconnect.
I have to wonder about taking the key out or starting the engine when its tilted are just from plain not paying attention. (dont sail near a jetty because you will hit the rocks some day). Leave the key in tilt your motor diconnect it and secure it. Thats the way it should be done. If you have attention problems then leave the shifter in gear, the engine wont start and it will remind you to lower it.
The engine when lowered will start and if diconnected and secure will still power your boat and you will have steering control from the rudders. So for you new guys that are not sure try it, if its that scary ask yourself why?
Is it from what you read on this board? or your just not comfortable with the boat in general? Get some stick time try things and enjoy your boat.
I like doing research on the net about things I dont know about, but I run into the same problem all the time. there never seems to be a straight answer and if there seems to be one out there someone comes around to dispute it, so I end up doing what you new guys are going to have to do and try it myself. Then in time you can dismiss the guys that led you astray the first time you asked a question, no matter how convincing they seem at first.
Mike
any one that has a Mac in my opinion should try sailing with the engine diconnected and locked in the straight position and up at least once. Then you can see for yourself the Diff. depending on recomendations from this board to disconnect or not and then never trying it yourself would be a big mistake. Why some people insist that either way there isnt a diff, blows me away. Either they never tried it or they are just arguementative for the sake of confusion. There is a wold of diff. between the two ways.
Speed and just a way better feeling at the helm. Those that try know.
Some times you have to wonder about the usefullness of this board
when someone asks a question and there are so many responces that just go against the grain of common sense, let alone confusing for the new guy. Any boat that you can take a couple hundred pounds of stress off the steering will benifit, any boat where you can lift the whole engine and prop out of the water will benifit. The auto pilot alone will work much better with the system diconnected. Problems of rounding up and the Mac not being able to steer a straight line under sail with out touching the wheel will all but end when you disconnect.
I have to wonder about taking the key out or starting the engine when its tilted are just from plain not paying attention. (dont sail near a jetty because you will hit the rocks some day). Leave the key in tilt your motor diconnect it and secure it. Thats the way it should be done. If you have attention problems then leave the shifter in gear, the engine wont start and it will remind you to lower it.
The engine when lowered will start and if diconnected and secure will still power your boat and you will have steering control from the rudders. So for you new guys that are not sure try it, if its that scary ask yourself why?
Is it from what you read on this board? or your just not comfortable with the boat in general? Get some stick time try things and enjoy your boat.
I like doing research on the net about things I dont know about, but I run into the same problem all the time. there never seems to be a straight answer and if there seems to be one out there someone comes around to dispute it, so I end up doing what you new guys are going to have to do and try it myself. Then in time you can dismiss the guys that led you astray the first time you asked a question, no matter how convincing they seem at first.
Mike
Last edited by aya16 on Wed Jan 18, 2006 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Bill at BOATS 4 SAIL
- Admiral
- Posts: 1006
- Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 7:28 pm
- Sailboat: MacGregor 26D
- Location: Oconomowoc, WI
Anyone that has a Mac should first try sailing with the engine connected. It gives the Mac a way better feeling at the helm. Like regular steering instead of power steering.
Telling a new guy that disconnecting the steering is the way to go is nonsense, and potentially dangerous, in my opinion. Re-connecting the steering is one more thing he may forget to do if he gets in trouble.
After he has some miles under his keel and/or he gets auto pilot, then try disconnecting the steering.
Telling a new guy that disconnecting the steering is the way to go is nonsense, and potentially dangerous, in my opinion. Re-connecting the steering is one more thing he may forget to do if he gets in trouble.
After he has some miles under his keel and/or he gets auto pilot, then try disconnecting the steering.
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Chip Hindes
- Admiral
- Posts: 2166
- Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 6:13 am
- Location: West Sand Lake, NY '01X, "Nextboat" 50HP Tohatsu
Agree completely with Bill. The disconnect I'm working on has to work with one hand and take no more than a few seconds. I'm thinking something with a ball detent pin. Push the button with your thumb while lifting the motor link from the rudder linkage, put it on the sorage bracket.
Same for the reverse.
Same for the reverse.
