POLL: Do you have a headsail furler?

[They Theirs]

Catigale

Hope your not stuck on this racing thing, just a good turn of speed and improvements to better the sailing performance of the Mac.

I am not asking anyone to give up their roller furled sail, and certainly their sailing with their family. All my kids acquired their boating skills the same way yours will, through boating and sailing with family.

Advising the group of the benefits available and some of the shortcomings involved with purchasing a furler, which can come with some future liabilities and shortcomings. I had only directed those who were inexperienced now, how they might just think different later after having spent boat bucks on rigging and hardware proving of marginal benefit as their sailing skills need something better to point higher, and sail faster.

Many of us have experienced crew on the Mac, like Richard OBrien and Chas, who take pleasure in the benefits of a boats sails and rigging, crying out for some upgraded sailing skills and controls to allow Sailing at their best and enjoying what Ive heard another call the kind of excitement that brings them back week after week, year after year, for a lifetime of Experience on the Water.

Some moving up, some moving down, others trading in last years for new. I like to think it is better to Have and Not Want, Than to Want and Not Have. I hope you can see my goal to pass on earned experience to prevent others from committing to something that may very well prove a mistake or less desirable later on.

[Zavala]

I can remember posting on this board for the better part of a year...

They Theirs -- Hey, wait a minute -- I thought you were new here. It says you joined last week. What gives?

Guys -- Sorry I missed all the fun of the last few days, looks like old times. Dr. says I have Carpel Tunnel Syndrome affecting both wrists and elbows -- from 15 years of working on computers I guess. So, I'm limiting my recreational surfing. But it will be a good excuse to head to the boat next sumemr for some "variety of movement." See ya' all around some in the new year!

[Highlander]

Hi They, Theirs (deckhand)

Come on laddie I maybe think you fell off that donkey " jackass'' & are walking too close behind it "knee deep " you know I,m just a novice sailor but I,ve been told I do things & run in some pretty rough stuff with some thirty footer plus cruisers who cant beleive I,m out there with them but at the end of the day they do not belittle me, they will tell me when they have seen me having problems & ask me what I was doing to correct them , "give me a little what if I had done this" teaser, only then if I ask them for advise they will offer it to me as they say it works for there boat but I,ll have to try it on mine the next time if I wish .
Most of the real sailors I have met will talk to me about the days when they use to sail small boats like mine & say they were the good old days
I just love to get out there & spend some time sailing & have a great time I dont care if I am never as good a sailor as you I only have to be as good as I want to be . You see its all about what I want in life not what you think I should want .
Like when I wanted to convert my boat to a cutter rig , some riggers I talked to told me I could not do this by myself but they could do it for me for a price . I shopped around met some other riggers who told me I had really done my home work & gave me the little bits of advise I was needing because they admired me for taking on the challenge.
Anyway cool them Irish heels of yours dont get offended . Some times when I want to do something with my boat & someone tells me that it cant be done . I,ll study it , you know what "it cant be done " becuase they could,nt do it first . so keep the blarney eh & have a happy new year

JS

[They Theirs]

Highlander

Im the last one to criticize you for attempting new things or committing your boat to a new rig. Somewhere this whole To Furl or not has turned into a get the guy who had a furler on his boat when he bought it, and has purchased and has another boat with a furler. Ive had hanks and foils and sailed with all of them. My contention has been and still is; if I had a choice at this time, I would forgo the Roller Furling and Opt for the Hanks and head stay. I do not like dealing with the furler when towing or storing the headsail on the furler leaving it curled and sorted over the cabin and deck. I prefer to remove the headsail fold and bag the sail in the boat. Call it personal preference or just experience with the deterioration of sails left out or up. The idea that we need to install a leach and foot cover to prevent UV damages. Costly little option in weight and cash, and youll need the genoa for light air, double the cost. I have gone over the criteria I use for headsail performance, so there is no secret there. By the time one feels the need for better sails and visits a Sail loft for something better than the light Dacron Doyle OEM production, you soon realize the cost of the sails, may bring you to look at your sail controls and the need to upgrade such as BWY has accomplished. I especially like the carbon/Kevlar/Mylar sails, and notice even though they are on the CDI Furler, which restricts your available headsail luff tension, these sails provide a much better shape over a larger wind range. (No leach and Foot covers on those beauties, and I doubt they leave them up without a Sock, and If I have to go forward to remove the sock, I might just as well hank on my Blade. New sails from a loft give you the option to install all the bells and whistles, plus some to benefit your own special rigging. I have no reason to criticize your ability to sail; Ive only related my experience and that of many others close to me who share my thoughts. I took offense only to a direct attack on my character, but its happened before, and I know the nasty will be pulled, and I shall remove mine. No need for this silliness.

Thanks for the advice JS and a Happy New Year to you and the lads.

[Catigale]

TT - I appreciate you guys who have sailed more posting up your thoughts and experiences so everyone can benefit from them, including myself.

I see the Macs as a beginners boat, and as such >90% of purchasers should buy a furler imho....the performance enhancements of a hanked on sail are at least 24 months of sailing (thats 4 years in my neck of the woods) away from being realised by a beginning sailor. I f you do get to the point where you want a hanked on, you can pull the furler off and off you go. In four years you are probably ready for a new sail anyway

Stepping the mast with the furler isnt much of a case against it - I step my mast single handed with no raising system with the furler using standard hardware and a few tricks to keep it under control, all previously posted. I do recommend the raising gear for those exclusively trailering of course.

[They Theirs]

Catigale


I appreciate and understand your observations.

The Mac can indeed be many things to all sailors, Like Richard says, versatile. For the beginner it certainly provides an entry-level price and offers a large measure of both motoring and sailing. I prefer to sail, but place motoring first for the confidence it can provide, however so many new Mac owners complain about their ability to control the boat especially in close quarters, at low throttle. The same applies when sailing. The new owner may delight in the portability of the Mac, but strain to absorb the complications of stepping the mast even without the cumbersome, heavy, CDI furler. Experienced Mac users, like Tom and Chas have learned to use the furler to better control their boat in a blow as they have acquired a feel for sail control, balance, and are able to combine helm for exhilarating performance. New sailors complain of rounding up in much lighter air with an inability to sail somewhat close to the wind. Much of this I attribute to their inability to set their standing rigging to support the heavy furler, and combine this with a large light air sail, while outboard chain plates and wide spreaders prevent sheeting at an appropriate angle, Many believe a genoa will furl to perform as a working jib or blade, even with poor shape and having re-routed the sheets inboard prevents any simulation of powering the sail up or down with its high clew and very poor shape. I find the working jib better suited to sail closer to the wind, provides a better slot with the benefit of a foil or even hanks the sheeting angle can only enhance our ability to adjust luff tension without the furler. Without the increased weight of the CDI furler, the boat will stand up and point better into the wind, especially when combined with some backstay control or running back in the case of the M model

Im afraid you and I see the benefits of the furler from two opposing views. We both see the ease of rolling out canvas as inviting, but covering, traveling, and stepping issues combined with the unavoidable control limitations, have altered my choice in the course of experience.

I would rather defer the cost of the Furler to a future time after rooted sailing skills can better see the merits of Furling vs. Non Furling. As you mention in a few years new sails will be in order, and a furler will still be available, and new sails can be ordered with the appropriate luff tape or hanks if their skill and ability merits the appropriate choice.

One can always order the Furler and sails, and then decide to go with hanks (They make some wonderful light weight composite hanks that twist onto the head stay.) by installing grommets on the luff and pinching on some hanks. However, youll be purchasing a new head stay, and just maybe you can find someplace to store that furler.

[Dimitri-2000X-Tampa]

and notice even though they are on the CDI Furler, which restricts your available headsail luff tension

I don't know of any reason why you can't tension the luff just as much with a furler as you can with a hank on...except that the extra weight tends to require more tensioned standing rigging. I think this is a common fallacy and I still do not believe that you get better performance out of a hanked on jib than you do with one on a furler. In fact, I suspect the opposite could be true.

The way I see the advantages of hanked on are: Easier sail changes, less weight for easier mast raising, and keeping your sails out of the elements.

Please explain how you get better performance with a hank on versus a properly tensioned furled headsail on a properly tensioned forestay?

[They Theirs]

Dimitri-2000X-Tampa

The headsail of the Mac is little more than a handkerchief when compared to larger boats. The furling gear is about the smallest they offer, and probably oversize for our needs. If the rig were masthead, deriving most of its drive from the headsail, there would surely be more sail to roll. A CDI furler (And this is the only one were talking about) has an advantage of a smaller foil than most major sellers, but only provides one luff groove and a static set the luff tension of the head sail. There is a benefit in having the luff loose and tight. The sharp entry of the headsail can make a marked difference in the boats ability to sail to weather, and the foil itself is not such a restriction to the clean airflow over the sail as when it is partially rolled. This is where the roller furler looses to the foil and the hanked on sail. The fact that head stay tension is very difficult to maintain with the weight of the furler and compounded when heeled over. You can tension the luff to some extent on the CDI unit, but you will not be doing it without great effort and not during a tack.
Many of todays sport boats combine a furler with a fractional rig smaller headsail, but they are designed for all in or all out performance. The Furler units are recessed in the deck, not like some seen with drums incredibly rose, floating in air, with the sail tack high off the deck. (Many cruising sailors like an unrestricted view, difficult when heeled over) Frank C. spoke of the limited advantage furling the small jib provides on the Mac and he is spot on.

I see the advantages of the furler as roll in, and roll out

Disadvantages are:
1) No control of the luff tension with halyard
2) More weight aloft
3) Difficult if not impossible headsail changes on the water.
4) Compression load on the extrusion can make furling tough,
5) Cumbersome, wildly furler encumbers stepping the spar.
6) Difficult head stay tension
7) Poor sail shape partially furled.
High Cost and Maintenance.
9) Extrusions, are easily damaged, age quickly
10) Lead of furling line is critical and overrides are common
11) They do not always operate properly, prone to have problems.
12) They must be carefully stored to prevent permanent extrusion kinks
13) Sails require luff tape, heavy leech and foot covers, or special sock
14) Expensive optional bearing kit needed to improve operation
15) Furled sails high clew affords poor sail shape and poor sheet leads

[They Theirs]

Ill probably take a beating on this, and may very well prove myself wrong, but heres some great stuff:

If Paul Harvey were here to provide the rest of the story

To make Catagails point

Double Head stays=Double Furlers on big boats

Headsail Reefing basics

[richandlori]

WADR....we are talking about the +/- of having a furler or hank on forsail on a MacGregor Right...

Sailing preformance and pointing....hello....its a MacGregor...not some race boat.

How many Mac Owners give a hoot about 5 or 5.5 knts or pointing 40deg vs 35deg into the wind? If you actually do care....you probabally stay up at night worring about the fact that we own a Mac...IE a Motorhome that sails/motors.

I've been following the thread and suspect (hightly) that some just like to argu points...whatever they are....kind of like the ford vs chevy stuff.

I just finished a 4 day trip with me and my two kids--7 and 8--30 miles up and 30 miles back down the Ca coast....and my sail covers never came off!

My Honda 50 did the job just fine averaging 10-15knts in some decent swells. I do like sailing, but it isn't the focus of why I bought the Mac. I have a Mac because of all it does...not just one aspect...but mostly for the "living" space below decks, but certainly NOT for its sailing abilities.

We now return you to your debate...for me...back to cleaning the Christmas mess up around here....

[They Theirs]

Richard Boren

Just returned from Church

My whole family was here for your New Years Parade. Lovely!

[Dimitri-2000X-Tampa]

The point is that I don't agree that you are having a .5 kn or 5 degree point differential just by having a hanked on sail and your links don't imply anything like that either. You keep going back to the tension issue, if you properly install your headsail on the furler, it will be just as tight as using a jib halyard. I already agreed that it would be easier to change sails without the furler but you aren't proving anything about performance improvement. Weight aloft is negligible (they aren't that heavy up top) and partially furled performance isn't the issue either. I don't have any problems using my furler and I'm not debating whether a furled sail has equal performance as a smaller hanked on sail. The question was whether sail for equal sail, you are getting any speed benefit from a hanked versus furler sail. Seems like the best way to settle it is to race two stock boats with the two different systems. I usually leave my genoa on most of the time, but if I know it is going to be windy, I'll change out to the jib before leaving the dock.

[richandlori]

Richard Boren

Just returned from Church

My whole family was here for your New Years Parade. Lovely!

Lost me.....am I missing something?

[They Theirs]

Dimitri-2000X-Tampa

Dont tell anyone we are going to race! I have to admire your determination and bravery. It is quite obvious youre confident enough to go for Pinks. I have to say, Im weak on that bet, but I will say I have another 26 International Class One Design Keelboat, and Ive experienced the benefits of both sides. My comrade has the same boat with similar equipment. His hanked on sails would out-point and out sail my boat every time, while my roller furler was convenient, and allowed me to set halyard tension and change sails in the double foil groove, while sailing, there is no contest. I even tried to one-up him in a race by using the genoa and attempting to roll it in as the wind increased near the end of the race (you cant change headsails during the Beer Can races). He even entered the non-spinnaker with me to prove the point. I crewed many a race with him, and we were somewhat successful for what was a well-seasoned design. Greatest triumph was taking the gun over a well-tuned Catalina, 30 which owed us time, we were always close on time.

[Moe]

This is the method we used to raise the mast with the furler, and my tiny wife could do it by herself.

After the mast base is pinned to the tabernacle, but still resting on the mast support, grab a loop of the furling line near the drum and tie it around the furler above the drum with a couple of half-hitches.

Lead the remaining furling line over and around a pin in the mast support brackets. If you're still using a bolt here, make sure it's installed so the furling line isn't riding on the threads. We used the Dwyer Mast Company pins instead of bolts because they make it much easier to pin the mast to the tabernacle or the mast support pole.

Lead the furling line through the fairlead and back through the stanchion bases to the furling line cam cleat.

Pull on the furling line and it will lift the furler up off the deck and most of the furled sail off of the mast. Cleat it in the furling line cam cleat.

Raise the mast from the cockpit with the mast raising kit, and as it goes up, take up the slack in the furling line to keep the furler drum up well off the deck. My wife used the starboard winch and the handle to raise the mast and that side seemed to work better for a right-handed person.

Once the mast is up, fasten the mast raising line to a stern cleat for safety, as originally recommended here by Duane Dunn IIRC. Do NOT rely on a cam cleat. Ease the furling line until the drum is just on or above the deck.

Go forward and remove the pin from the pulpit, and the furling line will drop free. Untie the line from above the drum, make sure it leads to the fairlead correctly, and pin the furler to the stem.

The mast raising kit was able to put sufficient slack in the forestay to pin it without a lot of tugging, even with over 300 pounds of upper shroud tension.

I suspect that on an M, one could just maintain a grasp on the furling line coming from the pulpit with one hand, while cranking the mast up with the other.

We came to this solution on our own, but that's not to say someone else hasn't and published it somewhere. Had we found it elsewhere, I would've cited that source, giving credit where it is due, as those here, especially Duane and Frank C, know I've always tried to do.