"jib halyard" as a secondary forestay

[mike uk]

I recently heard of a forestay on a Mac26 failing. Fortunately, the jib halyard had been tied to the pulpit acting as a secondary forestay and this prevented the mast coming down. I've been doing the same since!

I have noticed the top of my forestay has a kink in it just where it emerges from the furler top. I presume this may have been caused during mast raising/lowering when the jib assembly has been squirming around on deck. It's just a kink - I can't see any actual cracking or splitting of the wire.

Question 1 - Is the kinked wire safe? (consider for instance, the forward lifelines have a kink in them where they turn through 45 degrees at the stanchions).

With the furling jib, I find the upper bolt which accomodates both the top of the forestay and the "jib halyard" to be rather cluttered. The solution I have in mind is to fit a second bracket a few inches above the upper mast bracket to accomodate the "jib halyard". This will then keep the "jib halyard" well clear of the furling jib when it is tied to the pulpit. I realise this will alter the angle slightly for the mast raising kit.

Question 2 - Any problem with this plan?

Any views would be much appreciated.

[Chip Hindes]

Any line which runs past the furler on the forward side of the mast is likely to foul the furler. BTDT. In fact, I used an extra link on the jib halyard block to drop it below the top of the furler to fix this specific problem.

Though if you drop the jib halyard block below the forestay you won't be able to use it as such, I don't find the concept of the halyard as backup forestay particularly appealing. To each his own I guess.

A kink on the forestay is not nearly as benign as that in the lifeline. The kink on the lifeline is its permanent state. Typically the lifelines are under no/low load until someone falls against them, and to stretch the point, theoretically they only have to work once; i.e., they are not so much subject to fatigue loading. On the other hand, the kink in the forestay is a starting point for a fatigue failure. The constant tension and cyclic loading will further work harden and embrittle the kink as it straightens out, possibly resulting in a fatigue or progressive failure.

[jklightner]

I use that line to hold my radar reflector, up high near the mast. It is also used to pull up the zip on cover for the furler. I secured it to the pulpit rail at the most forward point, the mast holder area. And it saved my bacon when my furler came apart. The bottom bolt had unscrewed, cotter pin was either not installed or went MIA. It never fouled the furler, or the sail.

[Frank C]

Mike,
There's an easy alteration for the jib halyard, which tended (in my case) to foul the furler's top cap. I moved the jib halyard's "hanger tab" from the forestay bolt up to the mast thru-bolt (portside) that holds the forestay hound tabs. This offsets it about an inch to port and about 3 inches higher on the mast without drilling any new holes. It solved my interference problem and it might give you enough clearance from the furler.

One disadvantage is that using the mast-raiser with the jib halyard, now the mast is pulled erect with a strong port twist bias. If you've converted to Hardtle-winch for mast-raising, that's a non-issue.

On your overall goal though, check out the real reasons for the other failure, and address that problem - I've only heard of this problem a couple of times. I agree w/ Chip, I'm not compelled to have a backup for the forestay. Check your pin & turnbuckle each morning. If the wire is sound, the turnbuckle can't spin, and the top bolt is changed from threaded bolt to a good, solid clevis pin .... not much risk, IMO.

But, on the OTHER hand, in this Spinnaker thread ...

... Have use the spinnaker 2 years. ... I rerigged mine and can run it from the top of the mast or the factory jib block. When not using the halyard for the spinnaker, I attach it to the bow rail as insurance against forestay failure.

Finally, consider that the design of the CDI furler (internal halyard) is unfortunate. The basic hank-on jib, and most other furlers, use the jib halyard and the sail to provide inate backup for the forestay.

[mssydnie]

Interestingly, I have always used the Jib Halyard as an emergency forestay...BOY AM I GLAD! Last year out on the Detroit River, my self-furler/forestay came loose. Quick Pin came out! Jib halyard held the mast up...and fortunately jib was furled so furler line also hepled to hold everything in place. Quickly went forward...grabbed furler but couldn't get pin back in! Grabbed the Jib Halyard which had been tied off to the pulpit and used it to pull forward while we got the pn back in.

However....sometimes I don't learn my lessons! Used a quick pin again this year. Came to the marina where my Mac is slipped for the summer. Something didn't look right...furled jib was hanging straight down. Mast was being held up by jib halyard that I always tie off to top of pulpit. This time jib furler line had chafed through ergo the furled jib hanging straight down. No more unheeded lessons! Quick Pin is gone...replaced with stainless steel bolt connecting furler and with doubled nylock nuts. No further problem.

Because I tie off unused jib halyard to top of pulpit...maybe because I use only standard jib...have never had a problem with the jib halyard getting in the way of anything. If I start using halyard for something else I will definitely rig a separate secondary forestay...in spectra or some such low stretch rope.

Not likely to happen. I actually have set-up my own mast raising system on the two boats I have owned...Cal 20 and now Mac26X...and I use the jib halyard through a bullseye on the pulpit down to an added two way winch on the trailer. The Admiral cranks while I simply guide the mast up.

This system has worked like a charm for many years...raises the mast in maybe 30 seconds....can stop if anything "catchs" and then keep going. Lowering...with the two-way winch is just as simple. Only thing is...requires 2 persons...but much easier and faster than the Macgregor mast raiser. Actually I used the blocks of the mast raiser to set-up my main halyard back to the cockpit...so not a complete loss. LOVE THAT UNUSED HALYARD...SAVED MY MAST TWICE!

[mssydnie]

OOPS...in post about my mast raising system gave the impression I run the jib halyard to the winch I installed on the trailer. Not so. My joib halyard has a loop tied into it and a second line is fed from the winch on the trailer and hooked to the loop. Then the mast is cranked up by my wife. Sorry for any confusion...easier to do then describe.

By the way...my daughter and son-in-law just sold their West Wight Potter 19....where being young...they could walk the mast up...and bought a 1989 Seaward23...with a mast higher then our Mac's. They installed the same mast raising system and love it. Old as their "new" Seaward is...it has been maintained beautifully...and is just like new. Gorgeous and clearly well built boat!

[Chip Hindes]

There are hundreds of thousands; probably millions of sloop rig sailboats with exactly the same forestay setup as the Mac. 999,900 of the owners of those boats don't think it necessary to tie off some stray piece of the running rigging to the forward part of the boat as backup to the forestay.

Forestays do come down. When they do, it's almost never random, inexplicable nor simply bad luck. They come down because they weren't maintained properly, weren't inspected regularly, they weren't fastened properly, or some totally unsuitable piece of hardware was used for attaching them. Tying off the jib halyard to the bow pulpit is not a substitute for any of these.

I've completely lost count of how many times I have heard, read and stated, "Don't use fastpins on the standing rigging."

[mtc]

I agree - fast pins are like fast food. . .

they come out really fast at the worst possible moments.

Don't use them unless you have some sort of deathwish.

Tried them in the past, they come out . . . just like they're designed to.

Get a good, solid clevis pin with the annoying circlips - they're hard to put in because they're hard to come out.

Think about it.

Michael

[mssydnie]

Thank you Lord Hindes! However, some of us are human, make mistakes, and hope to learn from them without suffering too costly a lesson. Tying off the unused jib halyard was not meant as a substitute for a properly maintained forestay....only as a reasonable back-up measure which costs nothing and at least on my boat...has no other use. And you are right! No more quick-pins. I've heard better and should know better. Sorry for the "Lord Hindes" dig...but the tenor of your post wasn't very jovial either. I've watched your posts since we both joined the board in Jan, 2004 and I was on the previous Heath board as well. Mostly I find your posts to be super informative as well as the same for your mods posts.

[Frank C]

Sorry for the "Lord Hindes" dig...but the tenor of your post wasn't very jovial either.

I kinda liked it ... you should have delayed the apology for a day or so!
Chip's not jovial, he's an engineer! Tact or amusement ... totally absent from the eng'r lexicon.
Wry bemusement though at we average citizens - part of the certification!

[mssydnie]

Thanks, Frank C....and I really DO like and learn from Chip as well! Maybe he could use a ray of sunshine! Warm up Chip...I'll still read all your posts.

[mike uk]

Come on guys - just understand, they work on a different level to the rest of us. For instance, I recently overheard three engineers discussing the possible designers of the human body.

One said, "It was a mechanical engineer. Just look at all the joints."

Another said, "No, it was an electrical engineer. The nervous system has many thousands of electrical connections."

The last said, "Actually it was a civil engineer. Who else would run a toxic waste pipeline through a recreational area?''

Sorry, I've probably just broken some rules. I promise never to post jokes again, but couldn't resist this ooportunity.

[Flip]

I added a mount for the halyard 6" above the forestay. I tie it off to the pulpet just to keep it out of th way. I did this due to frequent tangles with the furler in the origional possition. Now I can rig a spinaker without risk of fouling on the furler.

And I have had the forestay come off. Unfortunately it was befor I had moved the halyard. I was one of those stupid enough to try a fast pin. In gusty wind they work out. You haven't had excitement until you had to refasten a forestay with full sails out in 15 knot winds.

[mssydnie]

Flip....Another Michigander. Was your jib halyard tied to your pulpit when your forestay came loose? In anycase, thanks for admitting to being human. I see from your profile that you are not an engineer. I think we should end this thread...I thank you all for your support...but I was really not "blasting" Chip...he is a valuable contributor to this site. Those of us who feel more comfortable with the jib halyard tied off will continue to do so...those who feel it is not necessary will also continue not to. If the forestay is properly maintained there should be no problem for either. I just like the "ounce of prevention" even if it is against my own stupidity! Onward and upward, as they say.

[Billy]

I've occasionally used the jib halyard to the bow rail for several years. Not only as insurance against failure, but to remove some of the load off the forestay when motoring over choppy water or in rough seas. I feel there are some heavy shock loads being applied to the pin/tang connection when the boat slams over a wave. After all, the forestay is 100% responsible for retaining the mast upright. There are no forward shrouds to connect after the mast is up. There are probably only a few Macs here that experience unusual sea conditions, but when on open water, it's just one less thing to worry about. As for lake sailing, I not quite as concerned about it.

Finally, on the cover of the 26X brochure--the motoring picture, isn't the jib halyard attached the the bow rail? Wonder why?