Replace steering for rudders with a tiller?

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Drifter
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Re: Replace steering for rudders with a tiller?

Post by Drifter »

Typically here it's quite normal to get a thunderstorm in the afternoon, hence the expression 'rain forest' but they usually blow over fast.

My general aim would be to head off very early morning, as soon as the tide is high enough, so we get out, do some fishing and can get back before the thunder. If there's no sign of a storm? Then likely safe to stay the night, as the vast majority of storms are in the afternoon. Pretty rare to have a storm late at night, and if all tucked in, hatches down, could be... exciting?

The last pic of the speedboat, that's the same mountain in the background, just big enough to deserve the name, rather than 'hill' but trust me, it's a tough climb. Done it twice, and I often hike up to a waterfall for picnics and general fitness.

Would you like more pics of that old tub?

I stripped it down ready to replace the rotten wood.... only to find this one was solid fiberglass. Only the transom was wood, which you can see I had replaced, so she was, and still is, a pretty tough old boat.

Sadly the Evinrude 200 on the back, which I paid a small fortune to have rebuilt (long story) somehow died, and the new owners have let it at the club, collecting green mold and looking very sad again, which is a shame.

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Oh yeah, I forgot to ask... "12mm Anchor Rope Dacron Polyester Three Stranded" - about 200 meters of that should do the trick? Or plain nylon, for more stretch?

The bottom is mostly just muddy sandy stuff, little in the way of rocks or stuff, unless you snag a wreck. I think I'm talking myself into nylon, partly for cost, partly cos of the potential for big waves, with plenty of up and down motion?
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Russ
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Re: Replace steering for rudders with a tiller?

Post by Russ »

Nylon for anchor rode. 200 meters should be plenty if anchoring in 18 meters of water. A 7 to 1 ratio would be about 125 meters by my calculations.

Sand and mud should be good holding. What kind of anchor do you have on that boat?

The only thing I fear is a nasty Thunderstorm. I've been caught in several and the winds are the problem. Rain is just a nuisance, but winds can whip up waves like mad. And the MAC has so much freeboard, winds blow it all around.

Anchoring offshore in the open doesn't appeal to me. What kind of wave action is offshore there?
--Russ
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NiceAft
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Re: Replace steering for rudders with a tiller?

Post by NiceAft »

According to West Marine: “The most common line used for anchor rodes is three-strand nylon line, which is elastic and able to absorb the shock loads generated during anchoring. Double-braid nylon line can also be used. However, although it is stronger than three-strand nylon line, it is not as elastic. ”

Also, these read like famous last words; “Pretty rare to have a storm late at night, and if all tucked in, hatches down, could be... exciting?”
Ray ~~_/)~~
Drifter
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Re: Replace steering for rudders with a tiller?

Post by Drifter »

Well I figure if you don't try, you never know, and the regret of not even trying is usually worse than the regret of giving it a go :wink:

Which is kind of how I ended up in Borneo in the first place...

One option is to anchor behind the sticky-out mountain. I hear a lot of the bigger fishing vessels do that, as it's sheltered from the prevailing winds, so a good anchor and bright lights should be just the ticket. Probably.. but it can get crazy shallow around there at low tide, indeed the chart says "Can dry in patches"...

Still more fun that trying to get home and put the thing back on the trailer and back in it's shed in the dark. That's my main concern, not so much anchoring right on top of the good fishing, but avoiding the mad rush to get back to the ramp before it's dark or the tide is too low, or the time the local fish-sellers will be clogging the ramp or ... whatever.

Be nice to spend the night in the Mac, wake up bobbing in the waves and make brekky, which includes some of yesterday's catch (even if I end up cooking the bait lol)

So, I should check the depth over there... near the tip around 2 to 3 meters. Enough, depending which direction the waves are coming from I guess? A friend suggests the river mouth, which also works... https://maps.app.goo.gl/P11Khm4QfwnUEf4a7 Also very shallow that bit, but the deeper bit will have too much traffic.

I don't recall the name of the anchor but it's one of those V shaped things that digs in deeper and deeper. Had to order it online, shipping was an arm and 2 legs.

How about 10mm 3 strand nylon rope? Too skinny? I'm just thinking of how much space 12mm rope would take up.. a lot?

Also, as you can only buy it in 100 meter drums here, can splice some more, right? Youtube tells me that's 98% as strong as the rope?

Just got back from a local tackle shop, spent a small fortune on soft plastic minnows, 3 rods and reels and a few other bits, ready for some skip-casting for mangrove jack.. Wish me luck with that, as I've never tried it 8)
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Russ
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Re: Replace steering for rudders with a tiller?

Post by Russ »

Doing some metric to imperial, 3/8" is 9.5mm. So 10mm is slightly larger diameter and should be okay. Don't forget the chain on the end which is the most important to add weight and chaff guard.

100 meters is a lot of anchor rode. I carry about 60 meters of rode with another 3 meters of chain. Water deeper than that I refuse to attempt to anchor in.

What kind of tides do you get? In the UK there are some crazy tides that make the make mac ideal if left dry on her flat bottom.

The current would be another big concern. Anchoring in a river mouth will mean the tide and current will flip your boat around 180 degrees. With the right ground tackle, there shouldn't be a problem other than the need to watch it reset properly.
--Russ
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Be Free
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Re: Replace steering for rudders with a tiller?

Post by Be Free »

OK, FWIW I'm going to share my experience anchoring out offshore.

I have spent many nights anchored offshore in the Gulf of Mexico without any problems. Personally, I would not choose to anchor in 20-30 meters unless I had no other options, in fact I don't even carry enough rode to anchor out in 20 meters in anything other than calm conditions. I just don't want to try to carry that much rode. I've been considerably further offshore than you are proposing, but I would not want to spend the night anchored there. I'm going to come in to shallower and preferably more sheltered water and from what you have described I'd recommend you do the same. Once you have some experience you can decide if you want to try anchoring somewhere less sheltered.

Planning is the key and the key to planning is a good weather forecast. If you know with some degree of certainty the wind direction overnight, particularly during the time you plan to be asleep, try to minimize the amount of open water that wind will pass over to reach you. This is called the "fetch" and it is one of the primary factors in wave height. That is one of the reasons why those fishing boats are ducking in behind your mountain. They are not only blocking the wind that they feel directly, they will reduce the fetch which will make the wind generated waves smaller. The only downside to coming into shallower water is that the period of the waves will likely get shorter (choppy).

In your situation I'd look for a reasonably sheltered area where the water will be no less than 2m at low tide (4m if you plan on leaving your center board down). Use an anchor that works well for your bottom conditions at around 7-to-1 scope. More scope may help a little but decreasing it will hurt you faster. There is not much difference in 10-to-1 over 7-to1 but there is a big decrease between 7-to-1 and 3-to-1 in poor conditions.

Make sure you have room to swing if the wind direction will be changing. Even if it's not expected to change, plan on at least 45 degrees to swing on either side of the wind; our boats like to sail at anchor. If you've never experienced the "Mac dance" you are in for a treat (NOT). Eventually you won't notice it but it's a little distracting at first.

Plan for the worst-case scenario. That's probably going to be something like your anchor dragging in the middle of the night and you are blowing toward the most dangerous thing around. Already have a plan ready to identify and react if the worst happens. Set an alarm to get up and check a few times during the night. An anchor alarm can help but nothing beats actually getting up and making sure the boat is where you left it.

If you end up anchoring with other boats think about what will happen if the wind shifts and one or more of them them is drifting down on you. Sometimes you can avoid this by anchoring in shallower water than most boats can use.

Good luck and stay safe.
Bill
2001 26X Simple Interest
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"If I were in a hurry I would not have bought a sailboat." Me
Drifter
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Re: Replace steering for rudders with a tiller?

Post by Drifter »

2 great replies and food for thought, thanks!

I'm currently distracted with both work and my river boat, which I bought 2nd hand but the owner never really used it, feeling it was too small for the sea, so she's basically new. He fitted an engine, used it a few times and decided to do what I've already done, importing a safer boat from Japan, and putting his 60hp on that.

Here she is, this is the one that will be getting my old Honda BF50.

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I have bought a little Lowrance fishfinder, which I need to fit (waiting for that putty weld stuff) plus I need to buy some bolts for the mount on the console. Also need some bolts to fit an anchor roller and some cleats to this boat, as it doesn't have any such fittings.

That is the standard design for boats around here, though usually bigger. That one is 22ft, most sea-going ones are around 27-33ft or so. You can see they are just open tubs, so the Mac is like safety-overkill compared to these things.

I'll pop out to the little island shown earlier, where I'm thinking of parking overnight, and that's about it. Beyond that it will be the Big Mac. Since my other little boat, now sold, was named the Little Mac I guess I have to call this one the Medium Mac?

:P

PS: before anyone asks me about that motorboat in the background, it's been sitting there for years. The boatbuilder keeps cleaning it but nobody can afford the thing, so it's like some kind of monument! Such boats are usually imported and rarely sold, which is why I restored that wreck.
OverEasy
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Re: Replace steering for rudders with a tiller?

Post by OverEasy »

Hi Drifter!

Ahhhh…. The life of adventure in a tropical paradise!
I really appreciate your sharing the bit of day-to-day hassle you go through.
It makes it more real somehow.
I’ve dealt with regional “logistical” issues both domestically and internationally but nothing like your experiences!
Kudos to you on an excellent restoration job on your old cruiser!
Nice work and aesthetically beautifully done!👍👍

While your steering box may well have been worn out over the years there is also some “linkage play” that you co7ld take the slack out of.
Where there is a pin going through a plate check to see if the is any looseness. Every 1/16 to 1/8 inch of play at a pin interface will be about 1/2 to 3/4 inch of wheel rim rotation. Three loose pin interfaces of an 1/8 each could result in possibly 1-1/2 to 2-1/4 inches of wheel rim travel.

A suggested fix for your logistical situation is to put pseudo bushings in the oversized plate &/or tube holes to remove the slack. A SST hex bolt with a self locking nut that fills the hole then drilled out along the shaft centerline to fit the pin. Apply some quality Teflon or silicone water resistant grease regularly to avoid galling. Alternatively if you have the material space drill out and go to a larger diameter pin to fit.
You could also add a sleeve over the existing pin to tighten things up. A good grease will help reduce galling and wear.

Another aspect is cable sheathing flex or ‘springing’. If the cable sheath can flex instead of being held ridged then it can result in excess wheel rim movement. The solution is to find a way to better secure the cable sheath to take the spring out of it.

Note: there will always be some level of backlash to just about any geared steering system… if there isn’t then it will generally bind up.
To help check the internal wear of a steering box you need to look at the cable end directly when rotating the wheel (after minimizing the ‘sheath springing” aspect. Most systems are of a single push/pull cable design with a ‘dead-end’ side that you might be able to access to see right at the box if there is gearing wear slop if you wanted to go that route.

I believe Blue Water Yacht has the appropriate replacement steering cable box assembly for the Mac26X to avoid any issues of fit.

Best Regards and catch some of those delicious fish you’re after!
Post pics if you can!
Over Easy 😎😎🐩🐈
Drifter
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Re: Replace steering for rudders with a tiller?

Post by Drifter »

Cheers!

An example of logistics.. Recall I said something about buy a seat and hoping it fits?

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Looks like it will fit, right? I mean they're both 9" circles, with 6 holes, gotta fit?

Nope, doesn't fit.

Seems Chinese and American fittings of 6 holes in 9 inches are not the same. *sigh

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This is why I can't have nice things..

:cry:
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Russ
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Re: Replace steering for rudders with a tiller?

Post by Russ »

Wow. Who would have thought inches are not the same?
--Russ
Drifter
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Re: Replace steering for rudders with a tiller?

Post by Drifter »

Marine inches are differenter...

New problem... (and a question about shaft lengths which is no longer relevant)

Image

The steering thingy is rusty as heck.

I don't even know what that thing is called. Anyone know the name of it, and preferably the part number for a BF50 circa 95?
Last edited by Drifter on Thu Jan 25, 2024 12:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
Drifter
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Re: Replace steering for rudders with a tiller?

Post by Drifter »

I would delete this post, cos irrelevant now, but I don't see the option anywhere
Last edited by Drifter on Thu Jan 25, 2024 12:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
Drifter
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Re: Replace steering for rudders with a tiller?

Post by Drifter »

Just messaged the engine-dealer, asking to confirm it's a long shaft... because I recall him asking me the transom height...

[4:50 pm, 25/01/2024] Mohin: Short shaft 15" transom and long shaft 20" transom
[4:50 pm, 25/01/2024] Alan: So should be OK, cos I told you was 49cm, which is 19.5 inch
[4:50 pm, 25/01/2024] Alan: So correct right?
[4:50 pm, 25/01/2024] Mohin: Yes


8)

(fingers and toes crossed)
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Russ
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Re: Replace steering for rudders with a tiller?

Post by Russ »

Drifter wrote: Thu Jan 25, 2024 12:42 am Marine inches are differenter...

New problem... (and a question about shaft lengths which is no longer relevant)

Image

The steering thingy is rusty as heck.

I don't even know what that thing is called. Anyone know the name of it, and preferably the part number for a BF50 circa 95?
Rusty Bolt?? Not sure what to call it

PIN, CYLINDER (UPPER)

https://www.hondapartsnation.com/oempar ... -trim-tilt
--Russ
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Re: Replace steering for rudders with a tiller?

Post by NiceAft »

Drifter wrote: Thu Jan 25, 2024 12:42 am Marine inches are differenter...

New problem... (and a question about shaft lengths which is no longer relevant)

Image

The steering thingy is rusty as heck.

I don't even know what that thing is called. Anyone know the name of it, and preferably the part number for a BF50 circa 95?

I suspect this may be what you are looking for. It is from my Honda manual for 2002 - 2008 motors.


Image
Ray ~~_/)~~
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