Replace steering for rudders with a tiller?

[Drifter]

I'm very soon going to be replacing my 29 year old Honda BF50 with a new Yamaha 85 2-stroke. Almost the same weight, about 5kg heavier, but more power and being new, easier spare parts and servicing.

Engine has already been ordered, waiting for it to arrive and the local boat guy to help fit it. The Honda will be placed on my new (2nd hand) river boat, which is a 22ft locally-made thingy.

A big problem with my elderly 26X (1995) is the steering is a sloppy mess, making it impossible to just maintain a straight line without constantly yawing the steering from one side to the other. I presume later models had a better design, as there are so many links and wobby bits with mine that it's hard to imagine anything worse really.

Yes, I could replace the main steering box and cable, but I suspect it wouldn't help much.

So I'm considering the idea of crafting a conventional wooden tiller, basically a long stick, to turn the rudders as steering when under sail, and just bypass all that gumpth and connect the new engine to the steering like a normal boat?

Perhaps put some kind of folding latch, so it can be moved out of the way when motoring and using the steering wheel, then when sailing, raise the engine and unfold the tiller handle? Or screw it back in or something? Obviously I don't want a long sticky thing in the cockpit if it's not being used.

What do you guys think of that idea?

Or is there some kind of modern kit that will give me proper, smooth steering that works?

You may recall this old vid:



That's just hopeless really. That much slop, without turning the engine or the rudder

[kurz]

about the play in the steering: are you shure that it all comes from the steering? I guess the rudders do turn somewhat, but till the motor turns ist takes some time. I like this: Becouse when I motor I let stay the motor in middle position. With only little turning with the whell just the rudders turn but not the motor. So you don't need forces to turn the whole motor. Works just in free see!

for tiller steering: Whatch this "emergency tiller" mod. One idea was to install this tiller on both sides of the boat. So you can have relaxed sitting positions.

viewtopic.php?t=27637

Just then to think where to put the box for the outboard. Of course would be great to get more place in the cockpit!

or go like this:
https://www.ezyglide.com/mechanical-steering-systems

[Be Free]

Hershel has a '98 X (pretty sure) and I was amazed at how light and responsive the steering was in it. You can get good steering in these 1st gen X models. Hopefully he'll chime in and tell us exactly what he has and what he may have done to keep it working so well.

I can't imagine that modifying your boat to a tiller could possibly make it steer better than a functioning version of the steering it was designed to use.

[kurz]

Hershel has a '98 X (pretty sure) and I was amazed at how light and responsive the steering was in it. You can get good steering in these 1st gen X models. Hopefully he'll chime in and tell us exactly what he has and what he may have done to keep it working so well.

I can't imagine that modifying your boat to a tiller could possibly make it steer better than a functioning version of the steering it was designed to use.

well, as soon as you go to tiller, you will save most of all play. You can see this when you use (like me) BOATS ev-100 AP-tiller modell...
to go to tiller with an will nothing do better, but you will have some more space in the cockpit... Why not?

[Tsunami]

I had quite a bit of play on my '01 26X. The remedy was replacing the original Teleflex setup with a Uflex T71FC unit.
If you open the pedestal to see what you have you should be able to determine where the excessive play occurs.
If the wheel can be moved that much without the cable moving, your steering mechanism in the pedestal is the culprit.
A new Uflex box sells for about $US90 and will be much cleaner than having a folding tiller setup.
Good luck

[Drifter]

Thanks guys!

I guess at her age she will need a new steering box anyway...

My problem is there are only 5 boat tradesmen around here. One speaks good English but his prices are around double anywhere else and limited stocks, another is... innovative, and can do good things but communication is terrible. The others have their issues too, so simple things like replacing steering is never as simple as just going to the boat shop. Typically it involves ordering things online, with high shipping costs and never quite knowing if it will fit (usually, no.)

In fact I just did that tonight, ordered a seat pedestal for my little river boat. My boat has 6 bolts sticking out of the floor, for a pedestal to fit. Measured as best I can, and got an online seller to measure his pedestal, and we both agree the holes are around 200 mm apart - so maybe it will fit? Or maybe it wont. Welcome to Borneo.

Next question - on both my Mac and the riverboat I need to fit a transducer to the transom. On my Mac I drilled into a plastic plate, then glued the plate onto the hull, rather than drilling into the hull. Worked, once. Fell off in the hot sun here, so I guess I need to bite the bullet and actually drill holes in my boat's fiberglass hull, which feels like a terrible idea, and right in the backbone of the boat, the transom, which feels like an even worse idea.

I'll also be drilling holes in the new boat to fit cleats, an anchor roller and a fishfinder mount. I'm sure I've heard us boaty people (I'm one of you, honest!) declare that silicone is the devil and should never go near a boat. OK... but how else does one seal holes and prevent rot and water getting into things it shouldn't?

I'm not even sure if my 1995 X has wood inside the transom, or if it's solid fiberglass? Can you even screw into just plain fiberglass, properly?

Perhaps I should start a new threat, but figured since I'm here I'd ask:

How do you guys mount a fishfinder on the transom of a Mac?
How to seal the holes when I start drilling on the new boat?



Thanks

[NiceAft]

You said you glued a plastic plate to the hull, but in the heat, it fell off. I have a hard time imagining 3M 5200 coming off for any reason. Before drilling, see if 3m5200 is available. 3M 4200 is designed to be removable, not 5200.

3M 5200
https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/p/d/b40066983/

P.S. Just wondering; which of the three governments ruling the island do you fall under? Just being inquisitive.

[pitchpolehobie]

Thanks guys!

I guess at her age she will need a new steering box anyway...

My problem is there are only 5 boat tradesmen around here. One speaks good English but his prices are around double anywhere else and limited stocks, another is... innovative, and can do good things but communication is terrible. The others have their issues too, so simple things like replacing steering is never as simple as just going to the boat shop. Typically it involves ordering things online, with high shipping costs and never quite knowing if it will fit (usually, no.)

In fact I just did that tonight, ordered a seat pedestal for my little river boat. My boat has 6 bolts sticking out of the floor, for a pedestal to fit. Measured as best I can, and got an online seller to measure his pedestal, and we both agree the holes are around 200 mm apart - so maybe it will fit? Or maybe it wont. Welcome to Borneo.

Next question - on both my Mac and the riverboat I need to fit a transducer to the transom. On my Mac I drilled into a plastic plate, then glued the plate onto the hull, rather than drilling into the hull. Worked, once. Fell off in the hot sun here, so I guess I need to bite the bullet and actually drill holes in my boat's fiberglass hull, which feels like a terrible idea, and right in the backbone of the boat, the transom, which feels like an even worse idea.

I'll also be drilling holes in the new boat to fit cleats, an anchor roller and a fishfinder mount. I'm sure I've heard us boaty people (I'm one of you, honest!) declare that silicone is the devil and should never go near a boat. OK... but how else does one seal holes and prevent rot and water getting into things it shouldn't?

I'm not even sure if my 1995 X has wood inside the transom, or if it's solid fiberglass? Can you even screw into just plain fiberglass, properly?

Perhaps I should start a new threat, but figured since I'm here I'd ask:

How do you guys mount a fishfinder on the transom of a Mac?
How to seal the holes when I start drilling on the new boat?



Thanks

I used JB water weld putty and stuck that to the hull so far its worked great. I checked it at my last haul put and is super secure. I would do it again 100x before putting a hole in my hull. 5$ fix.

https://www.jbweld.com/product/waterweld-epoxy-putty

[pitchpolehobie]

The wagon wheel speed guage and depth transducer on the right was installed by PO.

My garmin unit came w the mount on the left and thatd what I installed w the JB Water Weld for excellent effect.

Excuse the dirt and ice.

[Drifter]

Cool, I've ordered some JB Weld stuff.

Regarding the part of Borneo, it's considered East Malaysia.

This is the fishing spot I'm hoping to reach in my Mac...

https://maps.app.goo.gl/eBRxGdwCvzqtGsPw8

Some would say "Pft! That's just on the coast!" and some would say "Oh wow, too far for lake boat! Die one lah!" etc. I dunno, I shall give it a go. Indeed fishing that area, which has a few submerged wrecks and lots of red snapper, is the entire point of buying a Mac, as opposed to my old 200hp speedboat, which had zero safety features beyond the raw power of that engine.

A mostly-covered boat with a self-draining cockpit and a self-righting ballast tank, and positive floatation, has got to be better than an open tub with a big engine, right?

And as she's gonna have an 85 on the back she won't be overly slow either.

Technically my old speedboat could reach that area, but the fuel consumption was hideous and that boat didn't have a proper fuel tank. I could only source a 120 liter tank and then carried a spare 20 liter can. That tank was about 1/3 the size of the hole for it, under the cockpit, so I'd go to those 2 islands but no further. I've never reached that Holy Land of Red Snapper...

My ideal plan, if possible, as it's not too deep, is to get there, fish, and stay the night, with a couple of big anchors. Cook brekkie, preferably yesterday's fish, and sail/motor back to the river.

On a scale of 1 to 10, am I crazy or is this perfectly normal for a Mac?

[Drifter]

My old speedboat, which I had to repair from a wreck:

[Russ]

Wow, that old speedboat transformation is amazing!!

Much of your fishing plan would be determined on weather, no matter what boat you are in. It looks like a lot of open sea.

How deep is that fishing spot? To anchor you will need at least 5-7 times depth in anchor rode.

It looks like about 8 miles offshore. Where is your river to come back to?

When you go, you MUST post a trip report with photos.

[Gotro]

I replaced the steering box and steering cables. Mine was rusted out on my 95 macx . Now the problem is the rudders are sloppy , wolly out holes and worn Down bolts and gungens. Both assemblies need to be new . So I price the newer rudder system from the latter model x totaling $ 1600. Includes new rudders. break out another thousand or Two. It never stops. Lol

[Drifter]

I'm not too sure about the depth, but I know locals go jigging there, so they must have an idea. I'll ask around.

*Remembers he pays every year for Navionics that he never uses... hang on... 10-20 meters, so about 30 to 60 feet or so. As I've mentioned before, one of the reasons I wanted the Mac is the water is pretty shallow around here, making a conventional keelboat quite a liability.

The shallow water also means waves can get big in a hurry, so a slow-moving sailboat would also be a liability.

Saw a vid the other day, someone using a 70 hp on an X, even with full ballast and normal load of wife, kid and general stuff, they were reaching 28 kph, or around 17 mph + An 85 should obviously at least equal that.

Because of the shallow nature you can't go in a straight line back to the Santubong river, let me double-check the distance again... Yeah, it's about 33 km, so if actually hooning it at wide-open throttle I could get there, or back, in approx 1 and a bit hours. So around 2 hours cruising.

Of course, those are calm conditions, but I'd likely have warning to at least make a move and cover much of that distance before it gets rough.

The river is the one next to the mountain sticking out. The boat club it will be ramp-launched from is about 4km up that river.

Back to the steering, I'm wondering if it's possible to fit sleeves, or just fiberglass the sloppy rudders to make things less sloppy? It's been around a year since I even looked at the sloppy, sloppy mess that's there. It's such a mess that I considered just creating a tiller, see?

Just looking at it is depressing. I have no doubt later boats must have a much better design, as it's hard to imagine Roger continued making boats with the Rube Goldberg machine of a steering mechanism that this thing has?

In fairness I don't think any of it is actually broken, though I guess the steering box bit may be totally screwy inside. The stainless steel stuff at the back seems intact, it's just all loose and sloppy as heck. You can see in the vid I have 6 or 8 inches of free-play and that rudder doesn't even twitch.

Yes, I suspect there will be quite a few photos and/or video on her maiden voyage with that engine, though I'll so some sea-trials before attempting that long one (fancy word for 'experiment to build up the confidence first!)

[Russ]

"The Mountain sticking out"

I google Earthed it and your boating back yard area is amazing. Wow. People travel great distances to see "mountains sticking out".

My biggest advice would be to always keep a keen eye on the weather. 33km in nasty weather could seem like an eternity.
I'm not familiar with your weather patterns, but I would imagine bad stuff doesn't just pop up like we have on inland waterways.

Get the steering sorted. It will give you more confidence once it's tight. My guess is the box/cable is a big source and just do all the tightening suggested in this thread. Sleeves might be needed as well and should be simple to add.

As far as I know, Roger didn't change the steering in subsequent X models. The M is quite a bit different, but also relies heavily on a mix of links and components.

Good luck and keep us posted. Photos are always nice. The transformation of what you did with that speed boat is simply amazing.