Heeling to 35 degrees in 10 mph wind

[Dave B]

I have a 2011 MacGregor 26M. Aside from a styrofoam sailboat as a kid, and a Hobie Cat outing on Galveston Bay as an adult, I didn't have any sailing experience when I first got this boat. My research led me to a MacGregor 26M as the best boat for my needs.

I had read the boat was "tender" due to the neutral buoyancy of the ballast tank before it begins to come out of the water, but I am surprised at the extent of this tenderness. I took a couple of my kids out on a lake with 6-inch waves and 10 mph winds this past weekend. The boat heeled several times to 30 degrees and once to 35 degrees. The kids thought I was doing this on purpose. If they only knew...

I had the mainsail up, along with the Genoa. After a few "thrills" I decided to furl the Genoa. I got better results, but I'm still wondering if this is normal. I'd like a few opinions on this sort of thing, to help form a perspective.

BTW, I am VERY conscientious when it comes to being sure the ballast tank is filled, the transom valve is closed, and the bow vent is sealed. When I brought the boat back to the slip, I raised it partly on the lift--and then opened the transom valve as a test (no leakage before I opened the valve). I then went forward and opened the bow vent. This sucked the water right out of that little tub, so I know this was sealed as well. The cargo and passenger weight is also well-distributed and secured.

I understand that in a knockdown, the procedure is to immediately release the main sheet and the Genoa lines. Still, I don't want to flood the cabin out of incompetence. Is a 30 to 35-degree heel in 10 mph wind normal? Is this to be expected, or have I perhaps some problem that I haven't yet discovered. I spent most of the rest of the day with my mainsail within about 20 degrees of the boat's centerline. This seemed to help with stability.

While I'm at it, the rotating mast doesn't seem to rotate. It just stays stuck in one place unless I manually get on the cabin roof in front of the mast and rotate it. I would have expected this to move more easily. Does this happen to you, also?

Thanks in advance for your opinions.

--Dave--

[DaveC426913]

Is a 30 to 35-degree heel in 10 mph wind normal?

No.

I hate to ask the next-to-most-obvious question but: are you certain your keel was down?

Some other questions:
How confident are you in your wind speed estimation?
Is there any chance those heels were due to gusts?
Is it possible your mast head is filled with depleted uranium?

[Highlander]

#1 what position r ur genny cars in forward is power up rear aft is power down
#2 was ur mainsail outhaul good & tight a loose outhaul bags ur mainsail & powers it up on gusts
#3 was ur mainsail halyard good & tight so as the mainsail luff was tight & ur boom topping lift loose
#4 There are only 4 sail trim elements we are dealing with and they are draft depth, draft position, twist and angle of attack. A lot of sailors think there are more elements but there are not. The boom vang controls 2 of the elements. The first is twist. The other sail trim control for twist is the mainsheet. The second element the boom vang controls is draft position. The other sail trim controls for draft position are the cunningham, mainsheet mast bend and outhaul.The boom vangs primary funtion is to remove twist. Twist is a power robber as it spills air out of the top of the sail. So, if your object was to depower the boat, eliminating twist will not accomplish your goal. The boat will go faster as you crank the twist out but you will reach a point where the boat will start to slow down because a really flat sail is not very powerful.If your object is to depower the boat, here is what you would do to the mainsail (the jib is another story) - you would ease out on the mainsheet and lower the traveler making a wider ANGLE OF ATTACK. You would ease the boom vang thus giving more TWIST. You would crank on your outhaul to reduce the DRAFT DEPTH (belly)and lastly you would crank on the cunnigham to move the DRAFT POSITION forward. If you want to power the boat up, just do the opposite.As you can hopefully see, you have to use ALL your sail trim controls to accomplish your objective.
#5 u can also just ease the genny sheets & mainsheet for sudden gusts of wind
#6 once tacked pulling back hard on the top of the mainsheet will assist mast rotation I have to do this as my shrouds a very tight & they sing in a breeze like guitar strings
#7 while tacking screw should follow thru think as rail meat to the other side on the benches tho , please do,nt put the kids on the rail "wife maybe" ? , I,m only kiddin ! , I can see all those Admirals right now blowin a head gasket !
#8 anywhere between a close hauled & a beam reach U,ll want a full D/B down for better pointing also the full D/B down fills with water thus adding more ballast
#9 on a broad reach in light air I,ll go with only 2-3 ft of D/B to reduce drag & sometimes just one rudder down
#10 on a run I sometimes go with the D/B fully raised depending on how much sail I,m flying
#11 if u have a friend who has lots of sailing experience on dinghie,s & small light sailboats they could likely teach U alot ?
#12 if u have a libery near by see if they have any teaching sail boat how too sail vids or u can find them free on U-tube & they r great for viewing over the winter , also when at the libery look for some sailing for Dummy books no pun intended I have two of such books
#13 is their any mac sailors near u that u can ask to go out with u for a sail & some advise !
#14 don't b discourage we all had to go thru this learning stage I call it "Sail Boat Kindergarten"

Anyone who feels to differ or have better options please chip in never too old to learn something new !

J

[NiceAft]

Highland knows his stuff, but this may simplify.

If you're heeling too much in a 10 mph wind, then let out the mainsheet and furl your Genoa a bit. If that doesn't work (I'd be surprised), then have someone take the helm, and you go below to read what John said. He knows his stuff

10 -15 degrees of heel is the sweet spot.


Here is a less verbose Highlander explanation on a similar subject:

depending on how much sail u r flying

Only kidding John, only kidding.

[Dave B]

Is a 30 to 35-degree heel in 10 mph wind normal?

No.

I hate to ask the next-to-most-obvious question but: are you certain your keel was down?

Some other questions:
How confident are you in your wind speed estimation?
Is there any chance those heels were due to gusts?
Is it possible your mast head is filled with depleted uranium?

Trust me, I'm hard to offend when I'm looking out for my kids. No question is too obvious.

1) I had the daggerboard down.
2) I checked the windspeeds before I went out on the lake. I didn't check the windspeeds when I was out on the lake, but I think my estimate is very close. Perhaps 1 to 2 mph one way or the other.
3) We were getting slight variations in windspeed, but no gusts.
4) This is just the usual factory mast. Nothing special. I don't even have a wind indicator on top.

[Jimmyt]

Dave,

Congratulations on finding an M and getting out on the water.

Now, to your question. If you had the ballast full, and your weight distribution was reasonable, about the only way you’re going to do 30-35 deg in 10 kts is by close hauling the sails on a beam reach. So, when this excessive heel occurred, what direction was the wind coming from in relation to the hull? What angle was the boom in relation the the centerline of the boat? How close did you have the Genoa hauled?

Was the heel an actual measured 30-35 degrees, or just your feeling? Sorry, had to ask.

As Highlander says above, it is probably a sail trim issue.

And, don’t worry. If you have the ballast full, she’s not going over in a 10 kt breeze.

The rotating mast may not rotate with the sail in light air, or if your rig is very tight. Also, check the mast base for corrosion, or bent components.

Glad to have you in the mix!

[Jimmyt]

One other point. The guy with the sheets controls the heel angle (assuming the ballast is full and the Sumo wrestlers convention isn’t on the cabin roof). The normal heel for 10 kts, is whatever you make it.

My keelboat buddies have sailed my M for quite awhile between 25-35 degrees, usually in higher winds than 10kts. I don’t personally care for it, but that’s their thing. My point being the boat is safe, but you can cause a bit of heel if you try. Highlander has several videos of his boat on autopilot heeled easily in that neighborhood while he dances a jig on deck (ok, maybe he wasn’t actually dancing a jig).

All of that to say, it was probably your fault. Good news is, we’ll help you get to the bottom of it so you won’t frighten your crew. My wife doesn’t care for anything over about 15 degrees and less is even better.

[Russ]

I didn’t see if this was asked. But are you sure ballast was totally full?

Rotating mast. Grease the washers and make sure the bolt is not too tight. An upgrade is to use thrust bearings to make it turn easily.

[Highlander]

Hi Dave B

Maybe install a go-pro cam on the bow pulpit & shoot some vids when heeling to give us an idea what's happening !
Here's a vid I shot sitting on my 4ft bowsprit I did it the old fashion way as I did not have a go-pro cam
would u consider this too much heel with full genny & mainsail so as u know my genny is 3ft out on my bowsprit my butt was 4ft out
watch what happens when the wind picks up


here,s one fully cutter rigged full jib , Genny & mainsail




FYI these vids were made to show the Nay sayers mostly "keel Boaters" or should I say Dock Queens with keel boats who never sail anywhere ! or been anywhere ! who liked to Bastered size our boats don,t no why & don,t really care , likely cause they could,nt do what we do, most true keel boaters r receptive I,m talkin about guy,s who actually sail their keel boats

As per say I don't recommend doing or attempting these stunts with family on board unless u r more qualified & with at least older children late teens who r very good swimmers & wearing PFD,s & chaser boats near by then it,s a good time to also practise man O/B procedure's but first in sheltered bay,s

so as u see the boat is very capable in the right hands experience is good but won,t help u if u panic always stay cool calm & collective give it time learn & u & ur family will have many sailboat memories & take lots of pic,s & vids .

This is what u can have ahead of U !

lots of mac groups get together over the season

here,s a little more fun


Keep the boat

J
PS I should add, I have a lot more ballast than most 3 battery banks , double anchor roller with two anchors , anchor winch & my boat is heavily laiden which allow,s me to fly so many bed sheets , double spreaders & masthead rig & backstay on a traveler ! , bigger IDA racing rudders , 4 furling head sails rigged to sail all at once !

[OverEasy]

Hi Highlander!

Thank you for sharing a very well thought out set of guidance steps.
They have consolidated and distilled a lot into a nice package.

We also appreciate your sharing your videos!!
We can only aspire to someday have the sailing skills you aptly demonstrate so readily.

(We still think your bow spirit/anchor system is one of the most ingeniously well thought out arrangements we’ve ever seen!!!)

Best Regards
Over Easy

PS: We did notice that not only were you having three sails out but you were also flying a Dodger, a Bimini and a large flag.
If you were able to tie the tailing edge of the flag to the stern you could probably gain another square yard of sail area and a 1/4 knot in speed! (Nice flag by the way!)

[leefrankpierce]

Summary of beginning sail handling:
Point the boat some direction that you think it can handle.
Let the sails out till they start flapping.
Pull in till they stop flapping
If the boat does not want to go straight, trim the sails: pull in the main to go into the wind, pull in the foresail to go away.
A properly trimmed boat will not need rudder.
If you do not like the amount of heel, then reef.
If you have gusts that bother anyone, sail with the sheets in your hands and be ready to let go, or turn more into the wind when a gust hits.
All that stuff about sail shape is 100% correct and relevant, just too much to think about beginning.
Take all that info as phase II.

[DaveC426913]

If you do not like the amount of heel, then reef.
If you have gusts that bother anyone, sail with the sheets in your hands and be ready to let go, or turn more into the wind when a gust hits.

My Admiral has been spooked by a very bad storm we went through. She is terrified of heeling.
I have learned two (no three) ways to ensure it's not a problem:

1. Reef the main before setting out. It makes for a very uneventful (if slow) day.
2. Keep the main sheet across your lap. Any unwanted heel and you just let it loose. Harden up as-needed.
3. Don't go out when the winds are above 10 knots.

[pitchpolehobie]

The admiral just needs to be fastened in correctly.

[Jimmyt]

The admiral just needs to be fastened in correctly.

I married a country girl from the woods in South Alabama. If I try lashing her to the mast, I’ll be picking buckshot out of my backside for the foreseeable future.

[leefrankpierce]

The admiral just needs to be fastened in correctly.

I married a country girl from the woods in South Alabama. If I try lashing her to the mast, I’ll be picking buckshot out of my backside for the foreseeable future.

Ya, I married a Texas girl who's Dad was career Navy and wanted a boy.
I always joke "Don't run, she hits what she aims at!"
Qualified for her Concealed carry with a .45 auto, I keep the target around to remind me to behave.
Makes me tear up just thinking about it.
Man I "Piddy the foo" who messes with her cub. (son if cub did not translate)