Lee way

A forum for discussing topics relating to MacGregor Powersailor Sailboats
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Jimmyt
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Re: Lee way

Post by Jimmyt »

Sigh? :D

The discussion on sailing anarchy is a guy trying to account for the leeway in his determination of wind direction - based on his instrument readings; all so he knows whether or not to fly his spinnaker on the next leg. As I stated above, the leeway has a minimal effect on the boat velocity vector. I guess you are making the point that it is related based on the anarchy posts. If so, yes - like ragu; it's in there. :D

Now, to reality. What are the tolerances (accuracy, percent error, etc) of the various pieces of instrumentation he's using to attempt this calculation? Is the juice worth the squeeze? If you are worried about this level of information, you are probably a serious racer looking for that last tiny bit of edge, or you are doing mental gymnastics and inviting your fellow forum buddies to join in. Either way, it's good clean fun.

In the abstract, it's a sporty geometry problem. Trying to do an actual calculation under racing conditions, that is actually meaningful, is much trickier, as the boat heading and true velocity vector are constantly changing. Unless your wind instruments are mounted on some sort of gimbal, the angle of heel is likely to throw them off a few points (also constantly changing).

Look at the diagram below and notice the relative magnitudes of the velocity vectors, and the amount of change to the true wind calc due to a few degrees of leeway - even if you could get the instrumentation corrected to calculate it all fairly accurately. Do you really need to know true wind velocity that accurately to know whether or not to fly the spinnaker on the next leg?

Image

The only thing I need to know is if the Admiral is tired of looking at those plain white sails and wants to see the pretty one for awhile. :D
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Jimmyt
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Re: Lee way

Post by Jimmyt »

svscott wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 9:15 am Leeway is one of the first lessons I learned on my 26D a bunch of years ago. It was the first season my brother and I had the boat and we were doing figure 8's around some buoys to practice tacks and jibes and points of sail. My buddy was steering and didn't allow for the leeway and we thumped a very stationary buoy harder than I would've liked. The rubrail near the port chainplate will forever have a little flat spot to remind me that we need to steer farther out than expected.
When using autopilot to steer any real distance, I usually program it a few degrees higher than the chartplotter indicates and then fine tune when we make the final approach to our destination.
Smart man.
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DaveC426913
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Re: Lee way

Post by DaveC426913 »

svscott wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 9:15 am When using autopilot to steer any real distance, I usually program it a few degrees higher than the chartplotter indicates and then fine tune when we make the final approach to our destination.
My "autopilot" is a bungie cord. :(

But the sticky bit is, on a close haul, that few degrees higher will likely result in a dramatic loss of velocity.
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Re: Lee way

Post by NiceAft »

With all of the above opinions and experiences, it still comes down to keeping your eyes on where you are going :!:

Don't leave the dock without your head being squarely on your shoulders.
Ray ~~_/)~~
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Re: Lee way

Post by Jimmyt »

Absolutely Ray.

For those who want to see the graphical solution method for True Wind, here is one. Sorry PSNA, it doesn't include leeway in the discussion, but you could incorporate it easy enough if you felt so inclined. Plot your course made good in lieu of your heading and you should get your True wind, corrected for leeway.

Ignore the text and click on the screen. It should play fine.

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Re: Lee way

Post by DaveC426913 »

    NiceAft wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 9:08 am ... it still comes down to keeping your eyes on where you are going :!:
    In a boat so light that it can bounce all over the place, my eyes are glued to the foresail telltales. I'd like to give my eyes a rest for longer than 10 seconds on a three hour crossing. :?

    (Nice segue into my 'autopilot' thread, eh? :) )
    http://www.macgregorsailors.com/forum/v ... ef72606a23
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    Re: Lee way

    Post by PSNA »

    There really is no point in debating leeway when the OP wants to isolate and fix it as a stand-alone problem. It can't.

    Leeway is impacted by the boat's design, tidal flow as well apparent and true wind plus VMG along with other factors.

    A set of new sails will have little to no impact unless they are old and blown out. Spend the money on a good autopilot.

    The 26X and M have inherent design problems that will increase leeway over others:

    1. The steering system has too much slop.

    2. The standing rigging is woefully inadequate which does not allow for proper tuning. The M is worse due to the lack of a backstay and the ridiculous rotating mast that works only when it wants to.

    3. The boats have a hollow centerboard and rudders.

    4. Water ballast

    5. Both have massive freeboard which essentially turns the boat into a third sail.

    There are modifications that can be made to items 1 through three that will improve the problem. However, 4 and 5 are the main culprits and nothing can be done to improve it other than to buy a different boat.

    You will never get sterling sailing ability with a 26X or M. It was designed that way.

    Just understand the limitations of your boat and adapt to them. You will find yourself in a much happier place.

    I have spent decades racing and have witnessed the aftermath when someone tries to pinch a navigational buoy/mark. If you are cruising, throw in an extra tack to round it safely.

    I used to pull all kinds of stunts when I was in my teens and 20's. I was very lucky to be able to sail with my dad and grandfather in the cockpit.

    I can still remember the day when my grandfather looked me in the eyes and said....

    "Arrogant sailors believe they control the ocean and their destiny. They will eventually learn the hard way that the ocean controls you."
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    Re: Lee way

    Post by DaveC426913 »

    PSNA wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 6:26 am There really is no point in debating leeway when the OP wants to isolate and fix it as a stand-alone problem. It can't.
    Leeway is impacted by the boat's design, tidal flow as well apparent and true wind plus VMG along with other factors.
    ...

    1. The steering system has too much slop.
    ...
    There is a difference between understanding a principle and mitigating it for a specific boat. :)
    PSNA wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 6:26 am Just understand the limitations...
    That's exactly what I'm trying to do.
    PSNA wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 6:26 amI have spent decades racing and have witnessed the aftermath when someone tries to pinch a navigational buoy/mark. If you are cruising, throw in an extra tack to round it safely.
    Only two years for me. :)
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    Re: Lee way

    Post by NiceAft »

    Only two years for me. :)
    Don’t sweat it; you’re doing fine.
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    Re: Lee way

    Post by Jimmyt »

    DaveC426913 wrote: Sat Aug 28, 2021 7:14 am There is a difference between understanding a principle and mitigating it for a specific boat. :)
    It's going to take a while for you to develop a seat of the pants feel for it; primarily due to the number of contributing factors. Speed and wind angle are probably the dominant variables for any given boat. The lower the speed, the greater the leeway (constant wind conditions). The closer you get to a broad reach, the greater the leeway (constant boat speed). Unfortunately, things don't usually remain constant... Heel angle. The more you lean, the less lateral resistance your board and rudder offer. And then, there's current - which can cause all sorts of disorienting boat behavior.

    Sailing around channel markers, buoys, crab trap floats, or other fixed points might help you develop a feel for it. It's hard to even notice leeway when you're out chillin' on a comfortable broad reach in a large body of water. If you're serious about it, you could set up a course of floats to sail through.

    I admire your quest for understanding. Hope you can find what you seek.

    In light winds, even at low speed, leeway Is very manageable for those that know these boats (these folks for instance - demonstrating a boom Furler in a marina with no auxiliary power). There is no substitute for experience with your boat.

    Last edited by Jimmyt on Sun Aug 29, 2021 8:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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    Re: Lee way

    Post by Jimmyt »

    PSNA wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 6:26 am The 26X and M have inherent design problems that will increase leeway over others:

    1. The steering system has too much slop.
    3. The boats have a hollow centerboard and rudders.
    4. Water ballast

    I can still remember the day when my grandfather looked me in the eyes and said....

    "Arrogant sailors believe they control the ocean and their destiny. They will eventually learn the hard way that the ocean controls you."
    Lot of good points.

    I'm not sure I understand how steering slop, centerboard and rudder composition, or water ballast, specifically contribute to leeway though. Would you care to put a little meat on those bones for me?

    My steering is certainly not so sloppy that I can't steer a reasonably accurate course.

    I can see how size and shape of centerboard/rudder would impact lateral resistance, but not whether they're hollow or not.

    If you are referring to water ballast allowing a bit more heel angle compared to a ballasted keel, I can see it. But I'm interested in your thoughts if you have other concerns.

    Sounds like your grandfather was a smart man.
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    Re: Lee way

    Post by NiceAft »

    This thread might just as well be a discussion about how many angels one can fit on the head of a pin. Once you have an answer, so what.

    There are good points and bad about our Mac's, nothing new. Slippage is not a challenge that can be solved to the point where it is no longer a bother. I use challenge instead of problem, because it's not a problem, but rather a challenge. We sail on, by keeping an eye on where we are going. As my friend Highlander says, "Just saying, that's all."



    P.S. If you are really concerned about hitting a buoy, use a trick Catigale referred to a decade or so ago when he was in a low wind situation; lower your motor and proceed at 1000 rpm's, no one will know your're cheating. :D
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