How to get MOB back into an X????

[Rich Smith]

Ha! Great minds think alike...and so do our wives

I asked my wife the MOB question and she said that it was ok because she knew where the wills were!

John, perhaps you and I should invest in a harness and tether before our weekend trip to the Jazz festival!!!

BTW, for you folks from Ontario, I was at Dowsar Marine the other day and they have MOB slings (knockoffs) for $80. I thought that was a pretty good price. My problem is that I no longer have a topping lift since I use a boom-kicker...I have toyed with the idea that we could use my jib halyard to hold up the boom since I have furling anyway. In my mind this might even work better since it doesn't go quite so far up the mast and would likely have less chance of snapping the mast under the stress of lifting my ample butt!

[waternwaves]

Somehow I doubt that a panicing individual would be able to even unwrap and unspool most come-alongs. let alone clip and rig...

Without a crutch or mizzen, ulitmately all vertical forces for any such lift are transferred back to the mast. So a snatchblock or rescue pulley clipped to a permanent fitting on the backstay with the tails of the line clipped to the back stay adjuster are strong enough and high enough for a lift. This would also provide purchase for an easily adjustable backstay....., thus serving two duties...and fundamentally more useful to me...,

Using existing cabin winches though would require another pulley as a fairlead and I don't like the seat, cabin wall, or cabin top mount. They would require considerable reinforcement..

so, even with a double block, a backstay lift, and a trained crew...still seems like a very very wet and cold way to get back in the boat.

The second reason I have gone to this method is a bit more subtle tho....If the bimini top is up......everything is in the way.... and the back stay with the double block is about the only thing quickly accessible without having to tear up or through the bimini in those critical first seconds...

JMHO And as Moe would say.....YMMV

[DLT]

I like the idea of using the mast raising system. My problem is that the holes it secures to are used in my halyards aft setup. Besides, I rarely have the thing on board...


How about the jib halyard? At least for those that have led it aft, it should be long enough to reach a FOB (Fat-ass OverBoard) along side the boat and still wrap around the winch... That block is secured to the best place on the mast

[Chip Hindes]

A caution; although it is the most likely scenario, deadweight crew overboard recoveries should not be considered limited to hypothermic victims in cold water. I almost went over once during an unintentional jibe. I fetched up against the cockpit lifelines, and it almost literally knocked the crap out of me. If the lifelines hadn't stopped me, I would have been in the water, and for a good several minutes would not have been capable of assisting in my own recovery. With a dislocated shoulder, broken wrist, whack on the head, or any number of other injuries, I believe it's quite possible that even a non hypothermic crew overboard will be injured to the point they will be unable to assist in their own recovery.

I admit lifting an inert COB high enough to clear the gunnels, even with the lifeline down, is problematic. However, there's no way you're going to lift somebody over the transom without some sort of auxiliary crane setup; without that you're talking about dragging them over the transom, past the ladder, rudders, motor, steering bar, etcetera. In my mind this last has zero merit. I'm going for the over-the-gunnel method as the less problematic of the two. You will almost certainly have to drop the mains'l to use the boom as a jib crane, but in all but the calmest of conditions, the idea that you'll be able to perform any kind of recovery with either of the sails up is also quite problematic.

The mast is capable of supporting high loads in compression. You will pull the boat over on its side before you break the mast.

No so however, with typical topping lift block attachments nor the "normal" boom end fittings. I have upgraded my topping lift blocks (including both led aft turning blocks) by through bolting the blocks, and added a bail to the aft end of the boom with just this eventuality in mind. The boom gooseneck remains a weak point in the system, but my opinion is that though it might sustain some damage, it is unlikely to break.

[waternwaves]

Chip....

I agree, the topping lift is worthless for POB recoveryy, it is too weak, too low, and unfit for such use...

AS far as going over the transom.....that is not my first choice......

The backstay on the X is sufficiently close to the starboard side. and a tang on the backstay 8ft above the deck, approximately 1 1/2 feet above the boom hook is about right....., and hauling someone in over the smooth starboard side is much easier than bouncing them or pinching them, or fouling them in the transom well...., and since my ladder is on the port side......it is farther out of the way. At the position of my cable stay connection you come over the side anyway, not the transom.

But honestly.....I dont like any of the connections at the top of my mast for strength....even for the backstay...... but it is the best I have right now.

Well, back to the drawing board for a better recovery winch/backstay tension adjuster......

[Rich Smith]

So, I think I have a solution for our wives hauling us big tubby guys back on the boat in a MOB situation.

I was leafing through a Home Depot flier and noticed a portable 12v winch for sale ($99 CDN) It can deadlift 2000 pounds...Basically, my wife clips the cable onto the U shaped harness (Dowsar Marine has these on sale for $80 up here in Canada) and throws it to me, clips the electric winch to railing at the front of the cockpit which is plenty strong enough to hold me (don't ask how I know ) and then plugs it in to the 12v power outlet.

This will lift me up out of the water and away from the motor. If need be, she can leave me hanging there and motor home although I admit that it wouldn't be the most dignified way to enter a harbour

[Frank C]

... clips the electric winch to railing at the front of the cockpit which is plenty strong enough to hold me (don't ask how I know) and then plugs it in to the 12v power outlet.

This will lift me up out of the water and away from the motor. If need be, she can leave me hanging there and motor home although I admit that it wouldn't be the most dignified way to enter a harbour

... and just in case the battery is too low to run that winch, she can just drop you the Pos & Neg cables from your emergency battery pak -
"jump starting" you right over that railing!

[Greg]

Question: How much do you think the winch can lift?

I think the best technique may be to not mess with the rigging at all.

We have a Lifesling and the most important thing would be to get the sling out to the person then get the person up to the boat. If the person is small enough, drop the lifeline and lift them up over the side. A little heavier, bring the line just behind the foreward stanchion then around the winch and crankem up. If they are a little heavier, secure a line end to the grab bar, loop it down though the sling then up behind the foreward stanchion, then up to the to the winch and you have a 2 to 1 ratio. If they are a little heavier yet and another person is available, do the previous and run the line around both winches, then crank both winches.

I think trying to rig something while someone is in the water is wasting precious time. We also often leave the sailing rig at home so a universal technique is important.

I have pulled my daughter (75 lbs at the time) up and over the sides hand over hand with the boat while sitting in the driveway, but I haven't tried the winch method yet.Of couse sea conditions can throw a twist in the manual lift scenario.

Every emergency situation is unique, such as how far away help may be, so the response may be a little different. I haven't addressed normal MOB technique, such as assigning someone to keep watch and point at the MOB, calling for help etc, in this thread, just how a MOB may possibly be retrieved without using the standing rigging.
Back to original question, How much do you think the winch can lift?

Greg

[craiglaforce]

How about a sheet of stiff plastic that could be used as a sliding board? drop the stern ladder, put the sliding board down, and use the port sheet winch to scoot the MOB up the sliding board using a line passed around the MOB or attached to a harness or other sling type affair. The slidingboard would be easily stashed in the bat cave when not in use, or maybe it could have other uses.

SLIDE


Or maybe a sit on top kayak could serve as the board. toss the kayak over, dive in and strap the MOB to it, bring its bowline aboard, then start winching up over the transom.

[richandlori]

This topic has cost me many hrs of thought and the realization that there may not be a clean easy answer to some situations that can arrise on the MAc. I am 220lbs, my wife 120ish and I can say without a doubt that she could not pull me back on the boat without some type of assistance. I just won a Lifesling on Ebay ($61) and plan on doing some MOB drills with it the next time we are sitting saftely in a slip.



I could easily use it to recover one of my two kids or the admiral, but I seem to be the MOB nightmear case study! Once the lifesling come in and we have a chance to use and pratice with it, I may come up with something that works, but for now I think the best way to handle the MOB worst-case of me being in the water and needing help is NOT to let it happen.

I know this sounds "simple" but if I am acting as a responsible captain and I know that if I go in the water and am not able to climb up the swim step unaided that I could be "unrecoverable" by my crew it should be my No. 1 priority to not end up in the water in need of aid! I know it is a circular type of argument, but if that means wearing a teather, then it is my responsibility to do so. If it means paying EXTRA attention to the boom, then it must be done. If it means not going on the Deck without a lifeline, then I have to do it.

I just sit here after putting the kids to bed imagining what would happen if I put my crew in the circomstance to see their dad in the water, helpless, and possibly not making it back home.....can't let it happen, no matter how much life insurance I have.

In short I am thankful for this thread, it helps me keep a focus on the saftey factors that we all must keep in mind while out on the water.

Safe Sailing....


Rich

[Frank C]

... I can say without a doubt that she could not pull me back on the boat without some type of assistance.

Guess it would be a good idea, at minimum, to BE SURE the crew understands how to use the VHF.

[Greg]

Good idea Craig, but instead of bringing something else on board use what we have available. A combination of cabin storage covers, cockpit and/or cabin cushions would work to make a slide - enough to protect a person from the steering hardware at the stern. If a person cannot be fully retrieved, the best case may be to get as much upper torso out of the water as possible and warm with space blanket or sleeping bag.
Again, every situation is unique. If help is close, a partial retrieve may be OK. If help is not close and it is not possible for a full retrieve, then pulling the MOB's upper torso as far out of the water as possible along side the boat and slowly motoring to safety may be the only option.
One more thing, having another person go in the water is usually not recommended- you may have to do 2 MOB retrievals then.
Greg

[craiglaforce]

Maybe I was looking for an excuse to buy another kayak.
I was picturing an overboard situation in fairly calm waters, if you are in big waves this method would probably not be the thing to try.

The more I think about this and other things, the more I like the idea of having a cockpit arch. This would give a great place to put a block to retrieve MOBs, dingys, a permanent shade, place to lash the boom to if needed, Place to mount speakers, and you could lose that stupid pole that holds the mast up when trailering. Just put a padded rest on top for the mast.

A 26X for charter had a big goofy looking one put on down near florida somewhere. Wonder how that worked out?

[John Skardzius]

After reviewing all of the good ideas posted regarding this important procedure, one thing has become apparent to me. None of these will work very well (at all) if they are not practiced until they are second nature by the people deploying them. A MOB with injury is most likely going to happen when there is wind/waves. We tube on a large lake where the waves can reach 6ft at times. We sail routinely in 1-3 ft. waves with a wave period of 4-10 seconds. With wind blowing our "little white jugs" around the water, waves bouncing the boat around to 20-30 degrees of heel, sails flapping all over the place...there is precious little time to get back to the MOB, secure the sails, raise the motor, and get the MOB on board. Lots to do, little time to do it in. This weekend we had to put the enclosure up in such conditions with the advantage of having the motor running and one of us pointing to the waves...while the other put up the canvass. It was NOT EASY AT ALL! Now add all of the complications of finding things, plugging them in, shackling them, tying them up, whatever. To me the KISS principal has to be invoked. If the injury is serious enough, YOU HAVE CALLED FOR HELP before doing anything else. Presumeably whatever caused the MOB is still going on. My thoughts are that you don't have time to find things...use what is at hand. So the winches are always there. People know how they work and what they do. The mainsheet is always there close at hand. drop the main, two loops of the mainsheet around the winch down to the to the MOB. Maybe use the boom as a lever to help winch, maybe not. Maybe the deploying crew can get the MOB completely out of the water, maybe not. Moving the craft with the MOB outboard in conditions that created the MOB is risky at best, since injury can not be accurately assessed and might be exacerbated by the additional movement.

Point being...PRACTICE IT, whatever method you choose to be YOUR MOB PROCEDURE. MAKE IT SECOND NATURE AND MAKE IT WORK.

I'll post our experience after next weekend's MOB DRILL[/i]

[MAC26X]

After reading all these ideas, it's obvious that there is a serious risk here if
1. the MOB is unable to assist
2. the MOB is an adult or large person
3. cold water reduces survival time
4. waves or weather keeps the boat moving about

There appear to be flaws in all the systems that depend on the Mac rigging. The first priority seems to be to get the MOB out of the water. Instead of lifting the MOB over the side or stern it would seem to be much easier to deploy a raft and winch the MOB into the raft. That buys much more time to decide what to do next. Options include towing the raft to shore and more help, the MOB may then be able to assist, or keep the MOB more comfortable and warm while waiting for help to arrive. One person could deploy a small self-inflating raft, secure it alongside the boat and winch a MOB into it.