questions about mod's safety

[ALX357]

I have seen several owners mods of installing batteries and water tanks in the space under the V-berth..... that space is filled with solid foam chunks on my Mac X, so I am assuming that some or alot of the foam has to be removes to make room. Is this really safe ? a reasonable trade off for the convenience gained. ?

Also i see lot of cooking stoves, and grills installed on the stern, not that far from the gas lockers, ??? Does this bother anyone else ?

it also occurs to me that the flotation provided by the factory would be be sufficient to float the boat as manufactured, maybe with 10 gallons of water and 12 gal. fuel, a small bilge pump, and a porta-potty, but maybe not enough to bouy the usual added stuff we mod. eg. I have 2 added batteries, some electrical and electronic stuff, and lots of metal handrails, plus an extra anchor, tools, and 24 gallons of gas. Nothing extroardinarily heavy, but it all adds up. Might just sink slowly ....
But what of microwave ovens, refrigerators, air conditioners, porcelain toilets with pumps and large water tanks, (i guess water floats ) and generators, as well as overweight motors, billiard tables and gun safes. ?

[Catigale]

I sold the Admiral on getting a boat partly on the flotation aspect - indeed removing this for storage space does impact the boats ability to float if holed.

Having open flame on a boat is always something to think carefully about - it does seem a bit odd to have a fire going sitting on top of 24 gallons of gas doesnt it??

comments??..

[mike]

I have seen several owners mods of installing batteries and water tanks in the space under the V-berth..... that space is filled with solid foam chunks on my Mac X, so I am assuming that some or alot of the foam has to be removes to make room. Is this really safe ? a reasonable trade off for the convenience gained. ?

Are you sure these items have been installed in the foam compartment? I think when people discuss batteries and water tanks being installed under the V-berth, they are referring to the open area in the aft part of the V-berth, not the forward part that houses the flotation.

Personally, I would NOT want to remove any significant amounts of foam.

--Mike

[ALX357]

not sure about ALL of them, but have read of triangular water tanks, and of cut-outs in the foam to cradle batteries.
My X has two deep cycle batteries starboard next to the ballast vent, strapped to the aft-side of the bulkhead and set on a platform i built. I cut the cover which straddles the bulkhead to allow the batteries' space be accessible behind, and screwed down the front part where it exposes the foam blocks there. The front access cover is screwed down, and a warning sticker says don't remove any foam, but I am sure many owners have done that anyway.

[Moe]

As with Catigale, the Mac's floatation was a major selling point for us (as was the Whaler's). But looking at the pictures on their website, it's pretty clear that floatation is marginal at best. No outboard weight, probably no batteries. The amount of freshwater doesn't matter, it's neutrally bouyant, or slightly positive in saltwater. Ice, not to mention air, in the cooler is slightly positively bouyant. Gasoline is about 2 pounds per gallon positively bouyant, and any air in a gas tank with the vent closed is about 8 pounds per gallon positively bouyant. I wonder if MacGregor put two empty water and fuel tanks aboard, in addition to having no outboard and probably no battery on the boat in those pictures?

Some may point out that keelboats and powerboats over 20' aren't required to have floatation, and it wouldn't do the former any good anyway. That's true, but most have hulls double to four times or more the thickness of the MacGregor, and are much less likely to be holed. And powerboats made by National Marine Manufacturers Association (NMMA) members have at least "basic" floatation up to 26'. Similar sized Whalers will keep the gunwales and motor powerhead out of the water with a load 2,000 pounds or more GREATER than their maximum rated weight load.

No, I think the question is not how much floatation can you remove, but how much more do you need and where. For example, we have at least 100 or so lbs of batteries in the port galley seat. That would be balanced by 13-16 gallons of water in a bladder under the cooler, under normal conditions. But swamped, that 13 gallons of water is neutrally bouyant and no longer balances the batteries. I'm adding floatation to the port side in the form of boat fenders because that really is a good place for the batteries, especially since we keep an Ice Cube cooler tied down on that seat all the time.

I really believe many Macs need some additional floatation at the transom. Our "240 lb" Suzuki DF50 is probably about 80 lbs heavier than the carbed two-stroke Tohatsu the 26X was designed with. The Suzuki DF70 is about 100 lb heavier than the Mercury BigFoot the 26M was designed with. Floatation added back here should be located as high as possible to prevent contribution to turtling.

Regarding cooking near gasoline, keep in mind those fumes are heavier than air and should be pouring out over the transom, even in calm air. I don't see any problem with a Magma or other grill up on the pushpits, but it's probably a good idea to close the tank vents anyway. Certainly that's the case when cooking with a gas stove on the cockpit seats, much closer to them.

--
Moe

[DLT]

Here's my solution to "adding" floatation:

Remove the aft berth cusions and replace them with a queen size air matress. Doesn't have to be top of the line, but get a decent one. Mine is ~6 inches thick. Inflated that thing provides a whole lot of additional floatation...

Since half of it will keep my big butt completely out of the water, it can counter the weight of the engine and the batteries...

Most of the other "heavy" stuff, like water and fuel are actually neutrally or positivly bouyant. The other stuff, like the anchor, can be tossed overboard it you have time...

Yeah, I know the matress is not designed to float the boat and may not handle the pressure. But, its a lot better than nothing...

[Zavala]

Okay, this may be overly simplistic, but what about something like swim noodles? I've always been concerned about the extra weight of our Honda 45 on the back of our M19, and have never really used the "storage" beneath the aft berth. Now this thread has me thinking...

Would placing six or eight noodles in the bilge area help -- or would it add more risk of turtling because it's stored so low?

[DLT]

Well, they would never come into play, until you had water in your bilge. By the time you have significant water in your bilge, is turtling a real issue? I doubt it. The weight if the water in the hull should prevent that...

Besides, I'm thinking that if I ever get 'holed' and the boat is flooding with water turtling isn't that bad. Yes, I'd prefer it to stay upright. But, the whole thing is going to be full of water, so everything inside will be ruined no matter what.

As long as the boat stays on the surface, it will give the coast guard a bigger target to find us. I'd bet with the proper motivation, say sharks, I could climb aboard the turtled boat...

[Moe]

Not sure about noodles in the bilge and turtling. I did put a swim noodle in the top of the mast to add a little floatation there... probably needed to pull the bolts that go through it and add a coupla more for it to have any significance, but wasn't ready to do that.

--
Moe

[Zavala]

Well, they would never come into play, until you had water in your bilge. By the time you have significant water in your bilge, is turtling a real issue? I doubt it. The weight if the water in the hull should prevent that...

You're probably right. I was thinking about that accident a few years ago where the kid's were trapped in the cabin. I guess the obvious rule of thumb would be to get everybody out of the cabin ASAP if you start taking on water.... and as you point out, any floatation is better than none.

I did put a swim noodle in the top of the mast to add a little floatation there...

That is a GREAT idea. With the two piece mast on the M19, it would be really easy to put a couple in the top on bottom sections. I've never had a burning desire to go unstep my mast before right now.... thanks Moe, I think.

[Moe]

FWIW, I ran the anchor light wire through the center of the pool noodle, although there's room for it in the pointed part of the teardrop shaped mast cross-section.

--
Moe

[kmclemore]

I did put a swim noodle in the top of the mast to add a little floatation there...

That is a GREAT idea. With the two piece mast on the M19, it would be really easy to put a couple in the top on bottom sections. I've never had a burning desire to go unstep my mast before right now.... thanks Moe, I think.

Now, just remember Moe, you're to blame if anything goes wrong!

[ouch] (Is this where I say something like "That's really using your noodle"?) [/ouch]

And hey, come to think of it, why not use one of these and leave the top sticking out? Gives the boat kind of a 'Viking' look, don't you think?




(Sorry to be silly - It is really a good idea - in fact, they filled my BW Harpoon's mast with foam when they made it, as well as putting a small triangle of foam in the top of the mainsail - and it's virtually impossible to turtle that boat because of it).

[Moe]

Gotta give credit where credit is due... it was Barb's idea, and dollar-store find. So was slipping a piece over each of the pipes coming off the bow stop. Fluorescent green is hard to miss!

--
Moe

[Zavala]

Now, just remember Moe, you're to blame if anything goes wrong!

Well, I'm not going to place blame on anyone, but I couldn't resist the urge, and went to the marina over my lunch hour.

The bad news is that I had to put the noodles on the outside of the mast.

The good news is that it looks, well -- striking!



Now, if I could do something about those clowns I have as crew!

[Greg]

Like others have stated, the positive flotation was a selling feature for us as safety is always a concern.

I have not and will not remove any existing styrofoam that the factory installed. Since the styrofoam does not completely fill the area it is installed in, I have wondered if removing the existing styrofoam and filling the voids with expanding foam would net a gain in floatation. I have removed the aft berth cushions and installed 1" thick closed cell foam with carpet covering it. In a holed situation, the closed cell foam should float to the ceiling of the aft berth and provide almost 250 lbs. of flotation where it is needed to offset the weight of the motor and occupants. I plan to replace all interior cushions with 1 " closed cell foam that will provide additional flotation as well.

I try to imagine the worst case scenario and try to prepare for it. Of course you could add to the scenario (i.e., in a hurricane), but the one I would use for this would be crossing over to the Bahamas and hit a submerged container and hole the boat.

The video of the submerged Mac does not specify if the ballast is full or empty, I assume full. If so and if the ballast is empty when holed, gate valve shut and corked, you have an additional 1500lbs flotation there, assuming the tanks aren't damaged. The problem is that flotation would be where you may not want it, in the bottom of the hull where it will try to naturally broach the boat.

I have read where others have offset the weight of batteries etc, but I think if the hull is holed, you would want some weight down low with flotation at the top to help keep the hull upright.

I think the possibility of trying to sail the boat full of water would be next to impossible. Without the proper ballast, the slightest puff would drive the sails over.

In a holed situation, motor underwater, the best scenario may be to drop the mast so she wouldn't be top heavy then try and keep her from turtling in the swells. Just long enough to be rescued. I have thought about this for some time and unfortunately am typing this in a hurry, so sorry if I've missed a point.

I'm not addressing safety maneuvers in this thread, just the situation the boat may or may not experience.

Greg

Afterthought on the open mast top:
When I ran the wires for the anchor light, I filled the top foot or so of the mast with expanding foam. It supports the wires, prevents bugs and birds from entering from the top, would be relatively easy to remove if necessary, and will help prevent the mast from filling with water if you know what would happen.