water ingres by the steering when heeling

[Highlander]

Yes I found my rudder brkt bolts seeping this spring just sweating for now nothing really to worry about , but my biggest concern is that the mounting bolts r showing rust on them so I,m sure the salt water is starting to eat them up , so I,ll b removing them this fall & let the transom dry out for a few days after I remove the mounting bolts & rudder brkt,s & will have the rudder brkt,s strengthened with small side gussets weld too them so as they will not spread out anymore , then I,ll remount the rudder brkt,s with new bolts & sealant I will also use one longer bolt on each brkt so as to allow me to install a ground wire onto each brkt from the inside to help stop Electrolysis any thought,s on this

J

[Divecoz]

Whats your train of thought on this? allow me to install a ground wire onto each brkt from the inside to help stop Electrolysis what part of the electrical system will you be grounding the rudder bracket to? Right now its a stand alone unit isolated with no conductivity , but by grounding it you could make a pathway for stray currents in the water from , other boats or marina shore supply pedestals ..We talked about proper wiring of on board chargers here a number of years ago, and how you can cause electrolysis by improperly grounding the charger..

[Highlander]

Hi Div,
I have one of these installed on my boat




I see some sail boats have electronic anodes dropped off the side of their boats to help protect the rudder brkt & prop on keel boats when slipped not all but some so that,s why I,m asking for everyone,s opp-ion on this subject , someone on here posted a diag. showing rudder brkt,s grounded on a keel boat can,t find it at the moment tho to b sure ?

J

[kurz]

Hello all

Finally I have some news about the water ingres:

I think most of the water enters through the hole that goes to the factory installed bilge pump. As far as I know the water can freely pass the bilge pump.
The through hull is ca. in the same high like the little tiny holes for the steering tank. So very close to the water line.
I have no idea why Roger did so, makes no sense for me. So all time when you do backing with the boat water comes up high of course.
The manual bilge pump trough hull is much much higher. The bilge pumps are part of the CE packet.

So for the first a pluged the through hull for the bilge pump to stop this.

To stop the water entering inside the tubes of the steering I will look for an 32mm hose and try to bring it higher where you have the rope going up for the rudder.

To completely seal the water box from the steering I could install this:

The problem is that it is made of Polypropylen (PP). So I don't know how to fix it on the gfk. All glue types will not fix with the Polypropylen (PP).
But between the tube and the gfk tank a very small amount of water will come in I guess (hope). Much more entered through the bilge pump and the steering tube.

If somebody have an idea how to fix the PP tube - let me know.

[Tomfoolery]

As far as I know the water can freely pass the bilge pump.

It's almost certainly just a centrifugal pump, which will allow water to flow backwards virtually without restriction. Diaphragm pumps, used on larger vessels, have check valves.

The bilge pumps are part of the CE packet.

I did not know that. Interesting.

But there should be, at the very least, a loop that goes above the max normal water line when heeled before going to the thru hull. Another option is a check valve, but you have to drill a hole in the hose just below the check valve to allow it to vent air when the pump runs dry or the bilge water sloshes away when heeled so it can prime itself. If not, it will sit there running and not pumping. That was a big problem on my 34 footer until I drilled a small vent hole, which solved the problem.

Or remove the bilge pump and plug the hole, like boats sold in our part of the world.

[Jimmyt]

Great that you found your water problem! I'm surprised you didn't swamp it. If your through-hull is near the waterline and there is no raised section, it's no wonder you were taking on water.

Putting a raised section will likely lower the pump output a tad, but it's fairly fool-proof. I don't know why they put the through-hull so low. I put mine high to keep it away from water ingress, but also so it will make more noise if it comes on. I ran the high point about as high as I could get it just to port of the helm seat.

[BOAT]

Hey Kurz - Roger does not put in the CE packages or the bilge pumps - those are all dealer installed options added by the various dealers.

There is no bilge pump option from the factory.

[kurz]

Hi BOAT
Well don't think it is like this.
If Roger sells his boats to europa he has to follow to CE regularities. Otherwise the boat can hardly get out of the container.
I ordered my froma the Sharps... Would you tell them a "various dealer"? It was a direct option when I ordered it.
Also you can see the position in the original Manual I got from MacGregor, here you have page 15:


You can see how deep the electric bilge pump is positioned on the port side. And how high the manual bilge pump sits on the starbord side.
Roger designed it like this. I don't now why he did it. The first time you back out of the marina you get water inside the boat. To be honest it took me years to get it becouse I trusted the manufactorer...

To put the throughull higer for the electric bilge pump you have to cross the buoyancy tanks filled with styrfoam. So not a 5min-job. Becouse of this I put a plug that I can easily take out if I use the bilge pump...

[BOAT]

I'm pretty sure they don't do any of that stuff - they don't even install the outboard.

The Sharps are not the factory - they are a separate company that is the dealer for the overseas market. Sam for Mike Inmon - even though his company is called "At the Factory Sales" it's not part of the factory - it's a separate company.

The factory delivers a bare bones boat to the dealers (Sharps and Mike Inmon are dealers) and then they take care of all the other equipment themselves or with outside contractors. (At least that's what Mike told me).

Highlander might know more about that - he has the CE options also. He might know for sure on this - he might be able to educate me on the CE option.

[Jimmyt]

Kurz, as Tomfoolery suggested, a check valve or high loop should fix your issue. I did not have flotation in my 2013 in the area where I put the though-hull and high loop.

It's a bit tight if you're claustrophobic...

[BOAT]

I have the shower sump thru hull at about the same level on 'boat' except it's going out pointed towards the motor well (I put the thru hull in the hole that was already there for the steering arm - the factory puts a hole in both sides for the steering arm that controls the outboard) so I just used the existing hole. But, I also put a backflow preventer on the line and because it's connected to a sump it can be left on all the time (auto mode) by flicking a switch and any water that might flow back into the hose and get past the preventer will not get into the boat because it's catched in the sump. (There is always a tiny bit of backflow in bilge pump hoses). The sump contains any backflow water from getting into the boat.

[kurz]

Thanks Jimmyt, so I will have a better look if my has enough space to put a loop back there next time I squeeze myself back there.

@BOAT:
I wonder if the Sharps really installed all the CE stuff. First it is much easier and then cheaper if you do in the constructing process. And: In CE you need the stern pulpit. So you have other lifelines. And you have other holes to drill on deck. You really think the very smart Roger first drills holes in the deck an put lifelines... that one day later his doughter company will close the deck holes, drill new ones for the stern pulpits and have to adapt new life lines. And so on!
And more: The position of the through hull of the electric pump is designed from Roger, you see this in the pic above in the manual... If he had done higher like the manual bilge pump... No problem. I do not understand Rogers design. Sorry...

[BOAT]

Yeah, your probably right kurz - the factory may have done all that it seems strange that they way they did it is not even to code in the US. The bilge pump riser loop that jimmy is talking about is the only way I have ever seen a bilge pump installed that does not have a backflow preventer. I thought any pump or interior drain that is not at least 12 inches above the water line is required to have a riser loop or a backflow valve. How would the factory get away with putting in a bilge pump without a loop or backflow valve?? I do know that the factory does not install the rear pulpit.

[Jimmyt]

I'm not fluent in the yacht construction code, but I did find this discussion regarding bilge pump installation.

"Discharge: The discharge through-hull should be at least 8" above the actual full-load waterline at maximum possible heel. If placed lower, install an anti-siphon loop to keep water from entering the discharge — simply loop the hose as high as possible, install an anti-siphon vent, then lead it down to the discharge. However, if you can avoid having to do this by installing the thru-hull fitting high enough in your hull, there will be less overall system friction head. "

So, if you install the through hull on the stern, near the center, maybe you can meet the 8" at maximum heel rule where Kurz's through hull is installed. If so, it could conceivably be installed without a loop (assuming the above discussion mirrors the codes, regs, etc.). It doesn't seem to take big following seas into consideration.

In my opinion (and you know what they say about opinions), codes and regs are the BARE MINIMUM that some group considers safe. These groups often have agendas of their own that impact how the rules are written. You can always exceed the minimum requirement (subject to the IQ of any inspector), to provide a safer installation. When cost becomes an issue, the minimum requirements are typically what you get.

Hopefully, Kurz will keep us up to date on what he finds when he checks the discharge hose configuration.

[Jimmyt]

One additional data point for this discussion.

Due to timing constraints on my last sail,I couldn't make my planing run upriver to drain my ballast. For the first time since I've owned it, I put it on the trailer with the ballast full, and crawled up the ramp in stages as it drained. This put the stern lower, and for several minutes longer than my "standard" procedure. Ramp angle position, (bow high and stern low), on trailer was 5 minutes vs 45 seconds. I checked the bilge after my post above (two weeks plus after sailing), and the bilge is dry as a bone. So, if my rudder posts leaked, it's no more than could evaporate in a few weeks out of a closed bilge. I actually saw no evidence of water.

Knowing how they're made, I see that the rudder posts would leak if the boat was heavy enough, I'm just not sure where that point is. I'm wondering if eliminating your bilge pump leak might solve your rudder post leaking issue... since the boat won't have all of the extra water weight.