2nd hand report x rolling over and swamping

[Ixneigh]

This story was told to me last night at a small cruisers get together.

Guy bought brand new mac x some years ago. Before the M I think. The boat rolled over and swamped when he either left, or the centerboard had become unsecured, and lowered. When the captain tried to throttle up, the boat rolled and filled with water due to the hatch being open. The people on board were not injured but did wind up in the water. The outboard had the fin type add ons.
The boat was salvaged but was deemed a loss. I believe this happened in Louisiana somewhere.
The guy who told me this story had sailed on the boat and said the owner was often careless, including trying to sail with no ballast. I was told he was able to get his money back from the dealer since his kids were on board and his wife threatened them with bad publicity. This last part seems a stretch.

The boat seems to have gone past horizontal since the companion way hatch should still be above water in the boats on its side.
Since the man telling me this story says the boat was fast with a 50 hp, the boat probably didn't have much weight beyond factory.
I was under the impression that the boat would recover from a roll unless there were too many people on top of the cabin.

Ix

[whgoffrn]

I thought it had to have ballast in to recover

[1st Sail]

several years ago were were involved in a recovery of two near drownings. While sailing back to the ramp when we came across a floating life cushion and gas tank. This was early April and there were few boats on the lake. After recovering the cushion and gas can we heard a distant call for help. Then we spotted two people approx 600yds from shore in the water and 800-1000 yds dead ahead. We dropped the sails pulled the rudders and started to power up. Needless to say the boat was uncontrollable and started to power broach. Then I realized we did not pull the keel to its normal position which is 2-3in below the hull for full power. Full power with keel down on an X or M I think you could potentially roll the boat. Fortunately one of the few boats on the lake spotted the individuals and were able to power up and rescue the hypothermic individuals from the water. Thankfully they rescue boat was a platform hull as there is no possible way we could have recovered one of the individual which weighed over 300lbs and whose legs to totally hypothermic.

[Russ]

I'd love to get a closer hand report.

Whereas parts of the story seem plausible I find the story a bit far fetched. Sure, powering up with board down could cause big issues. I've done it and it's a bit scary.
However, the design of the Mac is incredibly safe. Powering up quick would raise the bow. The Mac has tremendous freeboard and it would be hard to get the forward hatch submerged if left open. The cockpit companionway even more so.

The one incident documented was an unballasted Mac heavily overloaded with people on the upper deck. That incident seems to be the one most often referred to when criticizing the poor safety of the Mac.

Maybe the fin addons to the outboard could force the boat into a weird angle, but still, on its side, the Mac lifts the prop out of the water and self rights.

I don't know, I'd love to learn more about this. I did see one Mac X on it's side without ballast. The captain was sailing it in crazy weather. It didn't capsize, it merely laid on its side and didn't come back up. It was someplace in England if I recall.

--Russ

[Ponaldpe]

I have a 2003 26M an d did run about a mile and a half with the Dagger board down, ballast out and rudders up. Did not understand why we could not get to top speed. got 14 MPH top on my boat is 17+. What Had happened storm coming in , raised the rudders, opened the ballast valve in a minute or so ballast empty close the valve . Other that going slower and a little harder to steer the boat did just fine, I did when I got home pulled the Dagger board out and could not see any damage to the trunk or the board. We were not doing donuts and only one wide swing turn to get to the dock. Mast up sails down , and two on board. I would think to get mush water into the cabin the water and waves would have to be rough . I am a new sailor with no training and have had this boat in wind blown over , and it just goes so far. But I have not tried bad wind sails up and no ballast. And unless I just forget I do not plan on trying .

[Chinook]

My one experience with instability occurred at the tail end of a 2 month trip to the Bahamas. We were just a few miles from the take out point, cruising up the ICW. I had emptied the water ballast, and was getting a head start on taking the boat apart. I was sitting on the cabin roof, working to unbolt the boom from the mast when we were given a fast pass from behind by a large cabin cruiser, who rocked us with a big wake. The boat heeled over enough that I got a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach. You know, that tingly sensation that things could go either way. Fortunately, she righted herself, but I don't ever want to experience that feeling again. After that, I make it a rule to never go up on deck with ballast tank empty.

[Russ]

I found the thread with the Mac X knocked down. Still, laying on its side is mostly out of the water and not swamped.

The boat was a Mac26X and on the Uk site was posted this reply to the incident;

"The man in the picture in the original post is my dad. I agree that conditions were probably outside the safe limits for the boat he was in, but then conditions do change when you are on the water, and he was motoring out from fishbourne creek when conditions started to change. The reason it was knocked over is that his dingy was blown from the deck and caught in the rigging. The centreboard was down and the ballast was empty, as directed for motoring close to shore in the guidance. He wasnt under sail and the sudden gust that caught the dingy broke the securing rope. All in all I would say he was more unlucky than stupid, but that would be my opinion. The boat itself was towed onto a sandbank and was bailed and righted by filling the ballast, without any further drama."

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=14105&start=60

[sailboatmike]

Just about any boat will swamp / sink given the right number of things going wrong in the right order. As they say about aircraft crashes, its never just one thing but a series of things that go bad that cause accidents.

I found a incident report (2 actually) of JOG rated boats being swamped and sinking. For those that don't know JOG (Junior Offshore Group) boats have to go through all sorts of safety tests before they can be rated as JOG and as you can imagine being "Offshore" the tests and safety requirements are very tough.

Both case were very similar, in that there was a squall, they kept pushing the boat without reducing sail, the boat got knocked over and the big one, they didn't have the cabin hatch shut (their cabin hatches are tiny compared to the Mac X) or their storm boards in position which caused the cabin to fill and the boat sink.

So even the safest boats can get swamped given poor seamanship and the correct series of events.

Personally the Mac feels much safer with the ballast in than the JOG boat I owned, she seems to revel in the conditions once the sea starts to get nasty, after all without ballast in the Mac is just a big dinghy

[Ixneigh]

Anyone know when the masts started being filled with foam? By that picture that's the only thing preventing capsize.
After taking my boat off plane in 3 foot waves, shortly after purchase, I added 350 pounds of extra ballast. I feel confident she won't go over if I ever forget the ballast.
I have always felt that there is some danger in starting out in calm waters and stopping for some reason on rougher waters. (Like I did. I stopped briefly to decide if I wanted to put the rods out, not thinking of the lack of ballast. ) Stopping to get a dropped hat, or whatever, and getting waked while the ballast is out is a real possibility too. .
Ix

[Russ]

Anyone know when the masts started being filled with foam? By that picture that's the only thing preventing capsize.
Ix

My understanding was they added foam in later M's.

The boat is resting on its side. According to the story, the inflatable dink is what pulled it over. Probably also what kept it there. I don't know. These boats have very flat sides. Once laying down on it, would probably stay that way.

[Ponaldpe]

Anyone know when the masts started being filled with foam? By that picture that's the only thing preventing capsize.
After taking my boat off plane in 3 foot waves, shortly after purchase, I added 350 pounds of extra ballast. I feel confident she won't go over if I ever forget the ballast.
I have always felt that there is some danger in starting out in calm waters and stopping for some reason on rougher waters. (Like I did. I stopped briefly to decide if I wanted to put the rods out, not thinking of the lack of ballast. ) Stopping to get a dropped hat, or whatever, and getting waked while the ballast is out is a real possibility too. .
Ix

My boat is a 2003 26M and the mast has foam in it, not loose foam a stray foam. at least on the ends I have never poked into it to see how far it goes.

[1st Sail]

my '06M mast is solid foam with no wire-way like the later models.

[Herschel]

My one experience with instability occurred at the tail end of a 2 month trip to the Bahamas. We were just a few miles from the take out point, cruising up the ICW. I had emptied the water ballast, and was getting a head start on taking the boat apart. I was sitting on the cabin roof, working to unbolt the boom from the mast when we were given a fast pass from behind by a large cabin cruiser, who rocked us with a big wake. The boat heeled over enough that I got a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach. You know, that tingly sensation that things could go either way. Fortunately, she righted herself, but I don't ever want to experience that feeling again. After that, I make it a rule to never go up on deck with ballast tank empty.

That is similar to my expereince as well. I cruise a lot on the St. Johns River in Florida, which can be narrow south of Lake George. Depending on the number of people aboard, I do motor without ballast tank filled at times. But I really watch out for large cruisers overtaking me. I generally try to turn my stern to their bow wave as it approaches because it avoids any roll with the wave on the beam and steering toward the cruiser is often not desired. If they sneek up on you though the roll of the 26X without ballast is just a little more than you feel comfortable with, and if gear is not stowed properly below, the scene in the cabin can be a little chaotic.

[BOAT]

Ones thing that never surprises me anymore is how the Ocean can surprise me. It never let's me down.

On our last trip to Avalon we motored over early in the morning from Long beach because moorings go fast in the summer and it's first come - first serve. We breached the Los Angeles breakwater around 8:30 AM. Within 1 mile of the breakwater the wind came up really strong - around 9 AM near 16 - 18 mph straight broadside of the boat - it was coming from the south! Really strange and very rare. We were unballasted all boards up WOT with the Auto Pilot driving the boat - the only thing I was controlling was the throttle. With that kind of wind I knew what was going to happen next: waves. So, I dropped the throttle to idle and opened the ballast tank and filled it up - them I closed the valve and continued on fully ballasted at WOT.

5 miles out the waves got bigger but still under 4 feet so nothing that worried me. The only problem now was that water was spraying up in the air and coming over the port side and I was getting soaked - but worse - I could not keep the water from hitting my wife who was hiding on the starboard side of the cockpit. I tried slowing down but that just made the ride worse because we were not slamming over the waves at slow speed like we did at high speed - at slow speed we were going down and up and down and up and wallowing back and forth - and the water was still spraying over the port side!

I hated to do it but I sent the wife below - knowing full well in those conditions it was probably going to make her tummy hurt.

So the wind was now over 20 MPH - but the waves stayed moderate around 3 feet and choppy so I decided to try something - I dumped the ballast.

I checked the weather in Los Angeles for that day and they were getting hammered pretty good too:
https://www.wunderground.com/history/ai ... reqdb.wmo=

Then I continued on again only working the throttle and letting the AP do everything else. We were flying along pretty good and the spray was significantly reduced. The boat would make an occasional slam of a wave (we nearly shook the shades off the portholes) but the boat ran pretty good - that one thing I noticed was the wheel - the AP was holding the wheel a full half turn to port to fight against the wind - yet the boat was as flat as a pancake with no heel or roll at all flying against one wave to the next. I was very impressed. I thought for sure the mast would have heeled us over but the boat remained level.

When we got to Avalon outer harbor the wind was blowing so hard the Harbormaster boats were having trouble keeping station as they came beside the boats to identify them and assign moorings. In our case he yelled out to us a mooring number and we proceeded into the harbor where another boat was able to come alongside because there was no wind inside the harbor. I was never worried because I have been through worse on that leg many times in the past - but my wife was not happy. She does not like to be cooped up below when we are underway.

When we left Avalon and came home three days later the wind was at ZERO and the sea was as flat as a pool table. We ran 18.5 knots best speed all the way back to Long Beach. Go figure - what a difference a day makes.

[Highlander]

Remember ur wife was supplying ballast just by being down inside the cabin if she had remained up in the cockpit I,m sure u would have had a diff result , my boat is loaded heavy & with ballast in & my eng. power trim tucked in nice & tight I can plow pretty hard into 6-8ft waves but I also have an 15% wedge kit installed on my transom which gives me a lot more power trim , but my full enclosure allows me with the Bimini up in a hurry up situation to quickly add my mid section roof & side curtains which extend all the way back to the pedestal
so anyone forward of the pedestal is getting a nice dry & wind free boat ride & with the full enclosure up u have a totally dry & wind free cockpit
J