Rudder breakage, failure, fixes, ECT.

[Ixneigh]

Rather then hijack a thread on something else I've started this one.

It is becoming cleared that for a certain subset of owners, those doing extended coastal cruising, the macgregor X and M power sailor rudder system is inadequate.
I feel an easy fix or mod should be developed.
Anyone who has had an issue please post here with the issue, the conditions, point of sail, sails set, blah blah blah. List fixes if any. Mention specific failure points.
Also, I am only counting failure as unable to steer the boat. Bending or surface cracks don't count.

I've long thought the system was marginal but maybe ok with some caution. I thought the metal brackets were the weakest points and that the oem rudders were unbreakable without actually hitting something. They look well made and are pretty heavy. I upgraded to After market Ida Rudders mainly for performance but at the time, "unbreakable" was mentioned on the website. (not that I paid much mind. Nothing on a boat is unbreakable except a sailors will to locate a bottle of rum)
The metal brackets bent, but still function.
A call to BWY about having a custom bracket made was declined. They said the brackets were strong enough. Ok fine. So, I've just ignored them for now.
Ix

[K9Kampers]

I like to think the standard rudder brackets are intended to fail under load before the transom does. Stronger custom rudders with stronger custom brackets should be followed with a stronger transom.

[jimmy alonso]

I posted last year about bending both brackets and both bolts breaking on my sail back from the BVI last year which I thought was a little strange because I have done this trip many times.
This was the second year these rudder brackets were in use because the originals got rusted on the top where the arm connects to it.
good thing the old ones were still around turned out the new ones are made of thinner material than the old ones.
Have to replace them soon either from BWY if 4.68 mm thick or get a local shop to redo them ... Boat trip is coming up in May I have not done much boat work since the hurricane Maria came.
Wondering if the factory changed the thickness anytime after 2004?
If your brackets are 4.68 mm thick they should be fine. If 3.38 mm may not be for sailing the Caribbean Sea

Bent While Sailing.....

NEW..

OLD 2004 Bracket....

[whgoffrn]

Ty Jimmy....just curious what kind of seas caused this was it following seas and approx wave heights / duration..... just curious I'm one of those attempting rudder mods and wondering what our stock systems can and can't handle

[Norca]

I have broken three rudder bolts and bent the brackets, finally a few years ago I replaced the bolts with 1/2" bolts
and I installed bushings in the rudder. There was a lot of slop in the rudders because the holes was too big.
I think that the rudders should be tight on the bolts without any slop, if the rudder can not move on the bolts, there is little or no sideways
force on the bracket.
just my 2 cent worth

[jimmy alonso]

Ty Jimmy....just curious what kind of seas caused this was it following seas and approx wave heights / duration..... just curious I'm one of those attempting rudder mods and wondering what our stock systems can and can't handle

Sailing along nicely downwind with a double reefed main on a windy day around 20 mph. Going about 5 knots. We were on autopilot for miles it was comfortable I was making sandwiches down below even thou the waves were 4 feet and then that mean dominate wave about 5+feet high would hit us at 45 degrees aft and heard a bang I said to my brother what was that? Looked around and saw the rudder on the high side trailing behind the boat only tied on with the rudder lines the bolt broke and post were bent but was able to keep on sailing with one rudder for about 5 NM until it broke too. The old rudder posts would have handled this fine.

I see you have an and have read that there are aluminum posts and stainless steel post.

[whgoffrn]

Ty for the response as expected i see most say it's the following seas that place the most stress on them...i suppose because it's more flat on the aft end and wants to slide when hit from a quarter or comes down heeled it puts stress on them.....yes i have stainless brackets on the x I have but I've seen reports of them bending as well so I'm redoing the entire thing ....oak rudders with plating on sides , vices on both brackets and the grudgeons that bolt through the stern are getting rebar welding it to the plate my outboard sits on

[Ixneigh]

Ok. In 20 knots down wind, 2 reefs, 3ft seas, board up, my helm is light as a feather with seemingly little strain.
Is it the five foot wave that does it?

Ix

[whgoffrn]

I've read some of madmikes posts and thought about it...... the flat rear end of our boats lend itself to sliding when pushed by a quartering wave ....the only thing keeping it from doing that is the rudders .... so the rudders not only are responsible for steering but they have the added responsibility of keeping the boat planted when the wave wants to push it side ways ..... compare that with the underside of a norsea 27 or a contessa 26 ....on those two examples the rudder only steers the boat as it has a long keel to alleviate some of the lateral pressure on the rudder...... also imagine in large enough waves to make a significant amount of the rudder come out of the water ... it will come back down .... unless the boat has zero heel as the stern comes back down it will come down at an angle placing a tremendous amount of lateral pressure on the rudders..... if the boat isn't heeled as the stern comes back down it just stabs directly back down but it's when the boat is heeled at 25 degrees or more either from the sails or if a sea state rolls the boat at a heel as it comes back down .... I do believe (opinion only) that a drogue would work to steer the boat to a degree but not well but I don't believe a drogue would stop from breaking a rudder cause it can't stop the boat from heeling or rolling as a wave rolls underneath of it.....just a theory

[sailboatmike]

I've read some of madmikes posts and thought about it...... the flat rear end of our boats lend itself to sliding when pushed by a quartering wave ....the only thing keeping it from doing that is the rudders

I used to have this issue constantly as the entry to my old home channel was at 45 degrees a stern to the prevailing wind and swells, it was like riding a bucking bronco and very unnerving UNTIL, I figured out why many sail boats had their jib out partially when coming up the channel, low and behold I pulled out the jib about 1/2 way and the boat behaved itself, lesson learnt, with our big fat square sterns we need to counter the force of the swell, the partially unfurled jib stopped the stern being pushed by the swell as the wind pressure counteracted the swell. Well thats wasn't all I did, I used to play the throttle to try and keep up with the swell.

All in all a bit of good seamanship (we never stop learning) and some though really minimised what was a horror story when the wind and swell was running in a narrow channel