Righting moment

[Ixneigh]

The extra 250 pounds of pig lead i placed in my boat has not made trailering any harder. Its not noticable until heeled past 20 degrees. Its not putting any more strain on the rig then two guys on the rail. I havent had the chance to sail against any other M boats though to asses light air speed loss.
Ix

[BOAT]

There is a loss of speed as weight is added.

That is why the ballast system on the MAC 70 uses a transfer system instead of a heavier keel - the MAC70 has a high speed pump that slams 30% of the ballast from one side to the other - this would also be the proper way to maximize the ballast on the M boat.

If 30% of the ballast in the boat was transferable from side to side it would make the boat faster in that critical 19 knot wind scenario that is the bane of all MAC drivers - the boat gets hard over and starts to drag because the sails are leaned over to far to get all the wind and the hull is digging in at the corners. 7 knots goes to 6.5 knots so you furl and reef and end up at 6 knots when you should be going 7 knots. It's that bad balancing act we all struggle with over 18 knots of wind.

Thankfully, over here we only get that kind of wind in March, April, and May or in the late afternoon for a few hours in the rest of the months of the year. 18 plus winds are less than 20% of the time.

If I sailed in the kinds of conditions you guys on the East Coast sailed in I would never run a Genoa - I would have a working jib. Genoa is not worth the hassle over 20 knots wind speed.

[grady]

There is a loss of speed as weight is added.

Sorry but that is not correct. Adding/taking away weight changes the performance curve. Every boat is different but in general at X whight and Y wind the boat is fully powered up you are at the sweet spot. When you add whight X you will need more wind Y to hit that sweet spot, and vise versa.

So you take 2 M's, A stock one and the other with a 300lb bulb keel. I am guessing a stock one will be fully powered up at around 8kts. The one will not be fully powered up until 10kts. So your average race wind is 5. The lighter boat will do better. Now the wind is 12, The heavier boat will do better. (Unless the lighter boat is smart enought to go with the jib and get back into his sweet spot!!! ) But then the wind gets to 25 and both are jibs and reefed. The heavy boat will do better.

PS. I have spent a lot of money improving my boat. However the biggest improvement in performance has been tiller time and making myself be a better sailor.

[Bertil Rafting]

I have now added the 450 lbs keel and sailed it. As I do not have to use the 1150 lbs of ballast ithe result is:
-It sails faster as the boat is 700 lbs lighter.
-The only time I use the ballast-water is when sailing upwind at true wind 8 m/s or higher , then it is faster than without ballast water. All other wind and courses are faster without ballast
water.
-I am using standing rigging of 5 resp 4 mm dynemaa which is much stronger than wire of the same diameter, (and appr 75% lighter) so it will not break.
-Also sailing upwind goes much better as the keel is giving a larger aspect ratio togaether with the centerboard and increasing lift with 35 % at speed 5 knots and leeway 2,5 degrees.
-I am using a keel and not a bulb for the lift-increase. A bulb will not increase lift as much as a bulb with its rounded surfaces. If you like I can show you a picture of the keel.
-It also seems the boat is going faster and squatting less when motoring because the lateral center of gravity is further to the front of the boat. I will try that more and come back to you if
you like.
-Next winter when my boat "Majken" is on land I will take the permanent ballast away to make it another 300 lbs lighter. The heeling will increase a couple of degrees, but then I can take aboard appr 187 lbs extra water ballast if I want.
Bertil

[BOAT]

I posted that the M boat will go faster under sail with less weight than more weight and as Bertil documented that is true. But what I said is not entirely true in all conditions so what Grady said is also true but only under certain conditions:

I was talking about my situation here where we have gentle consistent breezes out of the west - the boat sails a full 6 to 7 knots with the big genoa - but if the wind goes over 18 knots I need to bring in sail and the boat also leans over and things start to slow down a little and in those conditions I am going 5.5 knots. If I were sailing the same 20 knot wind with more weight in the ballast or weight on the windward gunnel I would flatten out a little, put more sail in the air, and drag less thus push back up to go 6 knots as long as the wind remains strong. So, the right answer is that extra weight will make you go faster in heavy wind - but in my case, what do I do with all that extra weight when the wind is below 18 knots 95% of the time?? I can't throw people on the gunnels off the boat, and I can't dump any permanent lead ballast into the ocean (how do I get back my lead ballast I tossed when the wind goes back over 18 knots again?) - and we all know I can't run a partially full ballast tank. ( Well, we are not SUPPOSED to - but it seems that Bertil has found a way to do it! ) So for ME in MY conditions - adding weight will SLOW THE BOAT DOWN. That is also why the MAC 70 has the ballast transfer system - same weight - just move the weight back and forth - a canting keel is the same thing - same weight - just move it back and forth. Or there is the old fashioned method the Americas Cup 12 meter rigs used: - RAIL MEAT.

Bottom line - add weight your dragging bait. Highlander has a lot of sails in the air - that is the proper way to add weight: More Sail! If you add weight - add sail. But if you add weight to the the same sail plan it's just gonna slow you down overall. Roger made all those calculations when he configured the amount of ballast needed to sail the standard sail plan in the standard conditions. That is why we carry a particular compliment of water ballast - that amount was not a "guess" by the factory - they knew exactly how much weight they wanted the boat to carry in the ballast for the best performance vs safety.

No one seems to be looking for more ballast on the M boat until the wind picks up - in those conditions - more ballast would be great - but that means your stuck with that weight when the wind is light and that means being slower most of the time if your in the South Pacific. (The MAC was built, in the South Pacific after all).

Bertil also proved another thing that was mentioned on the Roger MacGregor website: moving the rail meat or other movable organic or non organic matter forward will make the boat go faster under power.

Nice. I just wonder if he has a "bulb" sticking out of the end of his daggerboard? Does that slow you down a lot when you try to go WOT under power? Where did you hide all that weight in the keel? How did you do that??

One other thing Bertil - I would not remove the permanent ballast around the DB if I were you. That spot is the lowest point on the boat and makes the hull very strong against grounding or rocks in just the right place. That is also the spot on the bottom of the hull that is likely to come in contact with a floating object first when your planing at very high speed with the big motor. That big block of sand and resin could save your bottom from being holed by debris in the water or an accidental grounding.

[Highlander]

My 4 on board Batts gotta give me at least 350-400# of lead ballast 3 at the the aft cabin entry ladder & 1 in the V-Berth Bow

Now ur weighted keel is only good for Ballast

where as my weighted lead Batts is a multi purpose source

#1 added ballast !

#2 A source of power & energy ! t

#3 A rechargeable power source !

#4 Allows me to fly 4 head sail,s !

Now if u remove the 300# of permanent ballast u r gonna void ur insurance as u have now removed the designed extra hull strength designed & implemented by the manufacturer

This was done as a extra design for Hull strength so as the D/B would b the sacrifice over the Hull which u r gonna remove & make u liable !
It was also added as a safety factor but ur added keel weight would cover that ! but u r gonna lose on a a hull impact or failure of any kind !

Just Sayin That,s All

J

[Bertil Rafting]

-I do not agree that extra weight is good in strong winds, but extra weight is good but only when it is placed so it increases the vertical center of graviity and then it is only better when sailing up-wind in winds over 8 meter per second. In all other cases lighter is faster. Thats for the 26M (and for all mono-sailors, but at different wind-strength)
-I will take away the permanent barlast for reasons above, and then I will strengten it at the hull at the CB-case so it will at least be as strong as before taken the permanent ballast away.
Bertil

[Bertil Rafting]

What I forgot to write in my last post is that Majken is pointing higher and with less leeway with my extra keel because it gives appr 35 % more lift at 5 knots. Thats nice, now Majken is good also upwind.
Water ballast gives 0 kg lift.
Bertil

[Ixneigh]

These boats do not have the right hull shape to be good upwind performers. Esp in windy conditions. Snugged down they are comfortable and dry in moderate chop.
I would only try that removing the ballast stunt on a sacrificial boat. One already damaged by accident. Seems a shame to cut up a perfectly good one.
Ix

[Highlander]

Yep yer gonna have to cut out the whole floor around the head , V-berth walk way & around the galley & dinette then re-install it !! thats a lot of work plus it could effect ur re-sale value
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u200 ... /Hull2.jpg

need to watch the factory vid I,m sure the 300# of sand mixed with epoxy is inside the Ballast Tank right at the very bottom of the hull where the D/B comes out the bottom so u r also gonna have to cut open the ballast tank Too !! which makes it an even bigger job !!

Well best of luck with that one ! lets us know how u make out ,I,m guessing that,s gonna b a big winter project ?

J

[BOAT]

Way back in the old days when we first heard about boats that had water ballast that you could drain out of the boat the first thing all us sailors wanted to do was sail the boats with no water in them. Years of cursing our lead ballast in light winds were killing us.

The first trip you do to Catalina when the winds are less than 2 knots in a lead ballast boat will drive you CRAZY - bobbing along for EIGHT SOLID HOURS watching the island slowly grow on the horizon at a pace slower than the slowest hour hand - slower than watching grass grow, slower than watching a bucket of water dry up - IT DRIVES YOU CRAZY! - It's better to have no sight of land at all, then your not tortured with the constant knowledge of how slow you are. SO many times we wished we could dump our ballast and get underway.

Then We heard about boats with water ballast you could dump - we did not understand of course - we thought the water part was optional. The whole concept was still new. So yeah, the first thing we wanted to do when we got our hands on a water ballast boat was sail it with NO BALLAST!! It was a LOT of fun. Lot's of people did it but would not admit it. (Of course, I never did

We already know these boats go really fast without water ballast because people were sailing the MACs back in the 80's - 90's with no water in them because it was fun. You sail the boat like a dinghy, using rail meat just like any other un ballasted boat. You can do it real easy in light winds and the acceleration will really surprise you. (Next time you get passed up like your standing still by a MacGregor 26D take that into consideration and take a good look at the skipper - is he an old guy with a silly smile on his face and is the wind and water real calm? - you may have just been punked) - The 26D is lighting fast and it's also the only boat to capsize - (I still think that capsize was because the skipper was running dry).

That being said, removing all the ballast is not going to make enough marginal difference because you still need something to push against the sails - so if your going to remove ALL the ballast I suggest you carry three extra people on board every time you go out - You need to get the sail back up in the proper position to catch the wind. (Seems like a hassle to me for a 2 tenths of a difference in a knot of speed in light winds). One of the keys to running a dry ballast is lots of rail meat you can throw from side to side - the method will win races every-time - until you get caught.

But I can say, in 2 knots of wind the MAC will really go fast with no ballast! (You don't need to chop up a boat to find that out - I could have told you that years ago).

I think the big motor pretty much eliminates the thoughts of dangerous activities like sailing without ballast - that may be why Roger went in that direction after making the water ballast boats of the 80's and 90's - because I must say - running dry in light winds was a HUGE temptation back then!

[Bertil Rafting]

To Admiral and others:
As you know I added 441 lbs of a leadkeel in the bottom of the daggerboard and with that getting more righting moment as with the 1150 lbs water ballast.
-So if I take away the permanent ballast of 300 lbs and using no water ballast I have totally only added 441-300= 141 lbs to the boats weight and still have the RM as with ballast.
-Thats almost as sailing the orginal boat without waterballast as you said, but on my boat with the big RM.
-Another good thing is when it is blowing hard I can add waterballast of about 1325 lbs, and almost double the RM compared with the orginal boats ability.
-I am adding a picture of my keel:
[

[BOAT]

Yeah I see where your going and despite what everyone is saying here it's not really that crazy an idea.
Entertain me for a few here guys - let me describe a different way to do things for such a moment - imagine if the MAC were set up a little different:

Let's imagine the 26M - like he said - with NO PERMANENT BALLAST AT ALL but still having the big 1200 pound water ballast tank - okay, stay with me here,
Now, lets ADD about 500 pounds of lead ballast to the end of the dagger board.
So, eliminate the 350 pounds around the well, and move 500 pounds to the dagger-board. That only makes the boat 150 pounds heavier for trailering! but makes the boat 600 pounds lighter for sailing!
That would be REALLY fast on the water (but only when sailing in moderate wind). Then, when the wind goes to 30 knots you add the 1200 pounds of water! Now you have a MAC that will sail in 30 knot winds very nice because it's much heavier than a stock MAC.

Now, the drawback of course to all this is the POWER BOAT part - that keel is not going to go 22 MPH with a 60 HP outboard. And gas? ferget it.
The other obvious problem is lunching the boat from the trailer.

There is a boat out there with water ballast AND the same lead keel setup described but it's 500 pound keel swings into the hull for trailering - it's called a HUNTER
For all the work you need to do to modify the MAC M boat I think if you want it that bad it might be cheaper to just go buy the HUNTER.

I myself, would never own a HUNTER trailer boat because of the many people I have met who have.

[Highlander]

I find it very hard to believe that u have added 441# of lead ballast to a standard D/B for a start they r very flimsy & thin walled as they r designed to b the sacrificial lamb , the sidewalls r less than 1/8" thick . here in this pic of my damaged D/B the front wall is only 1/16" thick or less !

http://i844.photobucket.com/albums/ab1/ ... hlkgud.jpg

http://i844.photobucket.com/albums/ab1/ ... fwuc8n.jpg

So ur fatigue factor on ur D/B is 90% in a very short time !

I have never knownly hit anything to my knowledge to have caused this damage , with further investigation I have determined the D/B was @ a dept of 40" with the front damage impact area between 34"to 37" . so I have obviously hit a submerged object floating at that depth
I know some guys who have added 50-75# lead to the inside of their D/B also run 2 lengths of threaded rod down inside the full length of the D/B for extra strength & support
Just sayin Thats All !

J

[Bertil Rafting]

To Highlander and others:
About the CB. Of course we have made o new one. Same weight but several times stronger.