ballast filling with a light outboard

[KootsChewt]

Yesterday we got out for our first sail of 2017 (yay!), 2nd sail ever on our . Also, still sailing novices. So, I maybe am just being paranoid here, but the boat seems tippy-er than I even expected (based on reading numerous threads on heeling of vs vs 'regular' sailboats, etc). Maybe it was because the wind was changing directions quite a bit with nice gusts thrown in for good measure - we had one exciting moment when I was on a close haul, then all of a sudden good gust from beam side which brought us somewhere past 30 (I wasn't exactly looking!) and had some exciting moments of "release the sheet" to my wife and some confusion over which one I meant!

I checked the ballast vent a few times and would discover a bit of headspace, where when filling it prior, had filled it enough that water was starting to come into the well. This made me wonder if we possibly didn't have the ballast tank full enough to stop any sloshing effect inside (a disconcerting thought!) Reading some other threads, sounds like 'burping' the tank by walking back and forth helps somewhat with filling the tank and getting rid of any air bubbles.

I'm wondering it is an issue for us because our boat is pretty light! We only have a 20 hp 4-stroke on the back, which is a good few hundred pounds lighter than those 60-70 hp motors, and we also only have one Group 24 starter battery in the compartment right now (though I am stopping on the way home to grab a Northstar 24M pure lead AGM, so that will add some mass). In addition to that, we don't have any mods that would add weight (eg no custom cupboards etc), and barely any gear on it right now. Leaving the boat on the pin yesterday and rowing home, I did notice that the bow end stripe is significantly closer to the water than the aft (I would say the aft line is 2-3" higher than the bow). So now I'm wondering if we need to somehow add some mass to the aft end of the boat - if the ballast tank were a shape that allowed an air space at the aft of the boat that is lower than the vent hole...

Maybe I'm just overthinking this and the boat is in general tender and we'll just have to get used to it?! (Sailing on this mountain lake is probably going to test our nerves!)

[sailboatmike]

In gusty conditions I always sail with mainsheet in hand rather than locked in, allows for quicker response to the conditions, 30 degrees isnt going to hurt you, but it can get unnerving for your passengers especially early in the season.

Try sailing with a reef in if you want to relax a bit more in gusty conditions

[Tomfoolery]

Leaving the boat on the pin yesterday and rowing home, I did notice that the bow end stripe is significantly closer to the water than the aft (I would say the aft line is 2-3" higher than the bow).
<snip>
Maybe I'm just overthinking this and the boat is in general tender and we'll just have to get used to it?! (Sailing on this mountain lake is probably going to test our nerves!)

That's interesting, as I've noticed my boat sits 2-3" more proud at the bow, with no ballast in it. When flooded, it sits pretty level.

You might want to try moving some heavy 'boat stuff' into the stern berth. I store most of my junk back there, including the heavy full enclosure panels in a big duffel bag. Maybe put the human ballast in the stern until the ballast tank is full, close the valve, then go forward and close the vent.

As to being tender, well, that's just part of the fun. It stiffens up pretty good at 20 degrees or so, if memory serves (I don't usually look that hard, and just sail where it feels good). Often with my feet on the low-side seat edge. With the ballast up high as it is, it's a bit tippy initially. But predictable, and not unsafe feeling.

[Herschel]

We only have a 20 hp 4-stroke on the back, which is a good few hundred pounds lighter than those 60-70 hp motors,

I don't think the weight differential is in the neighborhood of "a few hundred pounds". My 50 h.p. Yamaha weighs in at about 250 lbs. Your 20 might account for some of the bow heavy trim, however, since our boats are designed for 50-60 h.p. engines with a little more weight aft.

[NiceAft]

If you have any items in the V-birth, try shifting weight more aft.

Ray

[KootsChewt]

Listed weight of our motor is 115 lbs, so I guess only ~130 lbs off of the more common 50 hp - but it is right off the back end, which probably makes a big difference. Hmm. The boat really is quite empty, so there is nothing under the v-berth. The porta-potti that came with the boat leaks (in the process of replacing), so we don't even have that up there full of water!

I did buy the AGM tonight, so will see how it goes later this week when I get back on the boat. Thanks all

[Signaleer]

Starting out is fun

So, everyone who has every been sailing has been surprised and scared by the awkwardness of it all. When I was in classes, we were in 25 to 30 knots doing man overboard on a variety of boats and I was freaked at first and you simply, I guess - get used to it over time, so to speak.

I don't think 30 degrees is much to worry about in these boats. Not saying you want to go much farther, and I wonder if you even could with that level of experience, but here are some thing to think about.

1. Heeling is not just about ballast, center of gravity vs. center of buoyancy, etc. Its also about sails. How old are yours? are they blown-out? Flexing? are they able to maintain a consistent draft?) I ask because I've sailed with junk and the heeling was at times nearly uncontrollable. Had little to do with my skills.
2. Sail trim, control, etc. If you were close hauled, you were probably on a pretty good heel, yes? What's another 5 degrees? Sure you weren't on a reach? If you were, perhaps you should have been reefed for unpredictable conditions. Also, as was previously stated, dumping main in a blow is something you or the crew should be ready to do.
3. As for Ballast, sounds like you are doing it well, but I sometimes run in reverse to fill up. And I rock the boat side to side to try to get all air pockets out, etc. Ify ou find some air, refill I think it should sit pretty level. I have 34 gallons of marine fuel and a 90 hp in the aft of mine and it still sits pretty level when filled properly.

All in all... relax. Seriously. I'm not saying tihs patronistically. I say the same thing to myself.

Make sure everyone has PFD's at all times under sail. When all fails, luff the sails and the boat will right itself and then start with the main and sail away.

Good sails do make a difference. Proper trim makes more of a difference. Check for leaks. post videos

Ed.

[KootsChewt]

Starting out is fun

So, everyone who has every been sailing has been surprised and scared by the awkwardness of it all. When I was in classes, we were in 25 to 30 knots doing man overboard on a variety of boats and I was freaked at first and you simply, I guess - get used to it over time, so to speak.

I don't think 30 degrees is much to worry about in these boats. Not saying you want to go much farther, and I wonder if you even could with that level of experience, but here are some thing to think about.

1. Heeling is not just about ballast, center of gravity vs. center of buoyancy, etc. Its also about sails. How old are yours? are they blown-out? Flexing? are they able to maintain a consistent draft?) I ask because I've sailed with junk and the heeling was at times nearly uncontrollable. Had little to do with my skills.

The head sail is a 150% genoa and is quite crisp and new (not sure of exact age). The main sail is original I believe... seems a bit softer then the genoa, but not sure if it is saggy or not - some photos of it are on Dropbox here -> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/c9ywz2m82fjz ... td3Za?dl=0. It is set-up on the Inmon rolling boom and has a full batten about 6' up from the foot.

2. Sail trim, control, etc. If you were close hauled, you were probably on a pretty good heel, yes? What's another 5 degrees? Sure you weren't on a reach? If you were, perhaps you should have been reefed for unpredictable conditions. Also, as was previously stated, dumping main in a blow is something you or the crew should be ready to do.

The conditions were generally quite light (<5 kt) and sometimes dead. We started tentatively with the main reefed (top of the sail at level with the front stay) and the genoa rolled in to jib size. No real gusts, going slow, feeling comfortable, so hoisted remainder of sail and unfurled genoa to about 135%. Generally everything going swimming, tacking nicely, getting crew used to backwinding the genoa slightly to get it to the other side etc. So while on that close-haul mentioned in the OP, we were maybe at 10-15 degrees. Normally I keep a good eye out for gusts and the dark blue wind lines (our previous boating experience has been a lot of canoeing [e.g. multi-day trips on some big mountain lakes], so I am pretty keen on watching the weather to get off in time!); but the gust mentioned in the OP really caught me off guard as the wind veered aft quite a bit to port and came in quite strong (guessing 15+ kn) for a solid minute. We fumbled with the main sheet for 30 seconds, got it released and I steered windward. Boat went over fairly far (at least by our standards ), but popped back up quickly once main released and boat came around to windward. It might even have rounded up by itself somewhat, I don't really recall.

3. As for Ballast, sounds like you are doing it well, but I sometimes run in reverse to fill up. And I rock the boat side to side to try to get all air pockets out, etc. Ify ou find some air, refill I think it should sit pretty level. I have 34 gallons of marine fuel and a 90 hp in the aft of mine and it still sits pretty level when filled properly.

Ours definitely does not sit level, but with only 5 gallons of fuel, one battery, and a much lighter motor, not surprising! Will have to take some of the suggestions above to more heavily load the aft area of the boat. My dream is to swap out the 20 hp 4-stroke with a Torqueedo Cruise 4 or 10 and about 12 kWh of used Leaf Li-Ion batteries, with ~4-500W of panels to recharge during the week, which would add a few hundred pounds aft over our current setup. We drive an electric car http://kootenayevfamily.ca/, and I'd really like to get the boat converted too.

All in all... relax. Seriously. I'm not saying tihs patronistically. I say the same thing to myself.

Make sure everyone has PFD's at all times under sail. When all fails, luff the sails and the boat will right itself and then start with the main and sail away.

Good sails do make a difference. Proper trim makes more of a difference. Check for leaks. post videos

Ed.

Thanks for your suggestions Ed. Will post some videos for feedback

[BOAT]

Hey koots,

Everything you said sounds really normal. I too run a very light boat.

For the ballast tank - most of the ballast is in the front - and when you walk to the front the tank should overflow in the vent hole partially because of your weight in the bow pressing down on the front of the boat while your looking down the peep hole! So you look, see water slosh, and say "Okay!" then you walk to the back to close the rear gate and put your weight on the BACK of the boat to close the valve! Leaning the boat to the rear does let out a tiny bit of ballast just before you close the gate - this only happens on the very light boats like yours and mine - the heavier boats are not as sensitive you your walking about on the deck. The water level in the tank goes from sloshing over the peep hole to about a 1/2 inch below the hole by the time you get the gate closed. It's not enough to make any difference. What your seeing is normal. No "burping" is required.

For the heeling - also, VERY normal - your sailing along and the boat starts to heel over to 30 pretty fast - what do I do when that happens?

Nothing.

That's right - nothing - just let the boat go - it will stop at 45 degrees no matter what if the tank is full - so you might as well get used to feeling the boat under your feet at 40 degrees because it will go there a lot but don't let it panic you - eventually the wind backs off and boat goes back or if it's persistent and you feel your hauled in too tight just trim up a little or furl in a little of that 150 but if you then find your just letting it back out again then it's better to just let the boat heel. The wind is variable and unless you want to drag around another 600 pounds of ballast so you can go slower just to hold a steady heel angle of 36 degrees there is really nothing else to be done - or you can sit there holding the main-sheet like a scared kid waiting for something to happen - not my idea of a nice sail but to each his own. I just set the sail and walk away. I go about my business and let the boat do it's business. The heeling does not bother me. Now that I have an Auto Pilot I really am just not a position to even bother with the main much - I like to sit on the bow or lay down in the cockpit and relax and enjoy the ocean. (Best place to sleep outside is the low side in the cockpit - nice and cool and breezy and you don't fall onto the floor if your asleep). My wife usually is looking for whales or taking pictures of dolphins and she is not concerned about the heeling anymore either.

Look at your waterline in the water to see how light your are - the lighter the boat is the faster it will heel (but the faster it will GO! )

[Signaleer]

Do you still have the boom held up by the topping lift with the main sail up?

I can't really tell but it looks like you do. *if* you do... that's a problem. Your main sail shape will be grotesquely incorrect. The topping lift is used to maintain boom off the deck when the main sail is not deployed. I'm not a user of, nor familiar with furling booms, but I don't think there is any scenario when the main is deployed that the topping lift should still be engaged.

That would result in the sail acting must as a wind-sock vs. wing and could cause excessive heeling.

Ed.

[KootsChewt]

Do you still have the boom held up by the topping lift with the main sail up?

I can't really tell but it looks like you do. *if* you do... that's a problem. Your main sail shape will be grotesquely incorrect. The topping lift is used to maintain boom off the deck when the main sail is not deployed. I'm not a user of, nor familiar with furling booms, but I don't think there is any scenario when the main is deployed that the topping lift should still be engaged.

That would result in the sail acting must as a wind-sock vs. wing and could cause excessive heeling.

Ed.

That photo was taken last fall, and after that I did do some more reading and realized that I should remove the topping lift. Now with how busy and rusty we were this past Sunday, I did not remember to remove the topping lift right away, but I'm pretty sure I had it off by the time we were really sailing and had "the gust". Having said that, I didn't realize it would affect sail shape that bad!

The wire that the PO was using is not really adjustable and the only way I could secure it out of the way was to bring it forward and clip it onto the the wire bracket that attaches the boom roller to the mast. Would be interested to hear what you use for a topping lift and where you secure it when under sail.

[BOAT]

Two places I have to 'rest' the topping lift: One is the bolt at the bottom of the mast - I have a loop tied in the topping lift that is set so I have to streach the topping lift to get the loop around the threaded part of the bolt sticking out - that seems to be enough to hold the lift there when underway - but I really for the most part use the SECOND 'rest' ing spot for the lift: I have the lift much longer so it's got a tail and a clip on the end of the tail - then I can just clip the thing on the end of the boom in the same place it goes when it's used as a topping lift.

Out in the ocean where no one see's me I am lazy and leave it attached to the end of the boom but it has a lot of slack because I use the clip on the end of the "tail". But when other boats are around I feel it looks messy (like leaving out the fenders) so if I am around other boats I will walk the topping lift to the bottom of the mast and loop it there on that threaded bolt.

Another thing - if that picture of a boom is your boom (Koots) then you have a main furler - that's a very handy thing to have when under way (they suck for trailering but are really nice for sailing)

If your having in a lot of issues heeling too much you can just furl that main right down a few feet and solve that issue really fast in a few seconds with just a pull of a line. That inmon furler can be used to "select" how much heel you want. Have you tried using it under way?

[Herschel]

Kootschewt wrote:

The head sail is a 150% genoa

I started with my 150 Genoa, but, after some experiences like yours, converted to my 110 standard jib. I admire "Boats" nonchalance regarding the angle of heel (I really do, Boats ), but prefer fewer surprises, as do most of my crew and guests.

[Tomfoolery]

I would start by losing the halyard shackle that's attached to the boom, and is sitting quite crooked at that. I use an adjustable topping lift, and have it set long enough that it's totally slack when sailing. It's just long enough to keep it off my head when the main sail is dropped, but for more room in the cockpit at the dock or at anchor, I take a few turns around the outhaul cleat to shorten it.

And I don't care what other people think, with my topping lift flapping around under sail. But I do pull my fenders in.

[BOAT]

Kootschewt wrote:

The head sail is a 150% genoa

I started with my 150 Genoa, but, after some experiences like yours, converted to my 110 standard jib. I admire "Boats" nonchalance regarding the angle of heel (I really do, Boats ), but prefer fewer surprises, as do most of my crew and guests.

Heeling in only one benefit of the jib: The working jib is all round a better sail, it will last longer, and take more abuse, - the jib is easier to manage and the boat is designed with a better rigging platform for the jib than it has for the genoa. Also - the boat will point better with the jib than it will the genoa and the boat will go faster in really heavy winds with a jib than it will with a furled genoa. Th M boat carries a LOT of ballast in the forward part of the boat right under the mast - so the genoa tends to move the sail effort a little behind the mast and I found that makes me need to have a slight amount of lee rudder to hold course - if you sailing abeam when that happens relax the genoa sheet so the tack of the sail moves forward about a foot - that will rebalance the boat and you can feel it in the wheel - no more lee rudder to hold course. If does not tend to happen when pointing, but the problem with pointing with the geona is that is points crappy - I sometimes use a car on the deck track and furl in the genoa to point very high, but the best solution is a jib - they work better than a genoa.

All around, the jib is a better sail.

I use a genoa because I live and sail in a area where the wind is very constant and predictable. You can set your watch by it.