26x and 26m stability

[Infoformacgregor]

Was wondering about opinions on the stability of 26x versus 26M. Have several young grandchildren, would like to teach them sailing, I've been told 26M is more "tippy". For simple basic sailing would the 26x be a more stable platform? Thank you.

[K9Kampers]

My vote for teaching your young grandchildren simple basic sailing would be to start with a Sunfish.

[sailboatmike]

Mirror dinghy would have to be the best, nice pram dinghy, super stable and great fun too boot.

Best part is they can be had for only a couple of hundred $$$$

Over 70,000 made so cant be too much wrong with them (Our family own 4 of the 70,000)

[dlandersson]

I lean towards the X, but I'm prejudiced, I have one. The X's hull has a 5% "V" vs. the M's hull with it's 15% "V". Key is to avoid excessive heeling until the kids (and moms) get used to it.

Either boat with a 50HP+ outboard, will allow you to get out of any situations faster than the average bear.

In my experience (kids 8 & 10, been sailing with them 4 & 6), the key is to make it fun. Most kids have the attention of a fruit fly, so having a "fish finder" or other device so they can see the fish under them, have play fishing rods, etc. so they can "fish" and towing them occasionally on a tube can go a long way. Our Genoa (from JudyB) has a skull and crossbones on it, which makes us easy to spot.

Possibly the best thing I've ever seen is this, a treasure map and a treasure hunt.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm_124tVM5U

[bwygirl]

Both the 26X and the 26M or for that matter any of the older MacGregor boats will be fine to teach the kids on. In comparing the 26X and the 26M, the 26X is hard chine like the T-birds (not the car the boat). Meaning that the edge of the hull makes a sharp edge from the hull side to the bottom transition towards the stern. The stern is fairly flat bottomed. This gives the initial stability in light winds, but in high winds you need to reef or you can go past this transition which makes the boat suddenly heal a lot. The M is more rounded like a traditional sailboat would be making it smoothly heel. But I would take my grandkids in either boat.

[Catigale]

Optimist pram.

They won't get the feel of sailing in a Mac and it is a difficult boat to sail

The feeling of independence they will get on their own is priceless and needed, nowadays

[BOAT]

The MAC M is a horrible boat to teach sailing to others - the cockpit is small and cramped and it has a wheel that is not real responsive and the boat does not accelerate when pointing into wind less than 1.5 knots from a dead stop so beginners get in irons on boats that can't accelerate pointing into the wind from a dead stop. The helm is far away from the main-sheet cam on the M so beginners tend to try to hang on to the wheel and lean over to the companionway traveler at the same time unable to get to the main-sheet cam and end up inadvertently turning the boat and the M leans over too and beginners are afraid to run to the low side to release the jib sheet when the boat suddenly heels over to 40 degrees. The M boat is not real forgiving either - if you don't make your turns fast enough in light winds the boat can lock up making a tack so you are teaching beginners to fall off first in winds below 2 knots before tacking which is a bad idea if they ever want to race. To really teach you need the student to do everything with no PHYSICAL help from you, only VERBAL help - if they can't, you have failed to teach them. I'm not sure about the X - never sailed one (although I sure would like to try one out some day and see how fast I can bury it). If I ever get a crack at an X boat I will give you an opinion.

The M boat is not even a good place for a regular keel boat skipper in my opinion - they struggle.

I always felt the M boat was designed for people who have experience and have sailed a lot of trailer boats and know how to sail them. The M boat is still the best trailer boat I have ever sailed, but that does not mean it's good for beginners.

[bwygirl]

I agree with all the thoughts about the M when teaching a new sailor but once they learn this boat they can sail many others. I have successfully taught many beginners how to sail on the M, adults and kids. You don't have to sit behind the wheel, sit forward of the wheel. Then you can reach the mainsheet and the jib sheets. Teach the beginner to ease the main when they feel like the boat is leaning too much, that gives them confidence and control. Soon they will be wanting to lean more and more! The wheel is not as responsive as a tiller would be but you can get feedback from it if you do not also have the engine connected to the rudders when you are sailing. You can also get an upgraded high performance steering cable that will give you a lot more feedback and way less slop. The boat should balance nicely and you should all get to the point where you have the sails set right and the wheel holds the position, I have sailed the length of our small Lake Union with no hands. When teaching my little kids on the M I have just been rolling out the jib for a little bit of sailing downwind. But when teaching other older kids or adults use both sails, on a nice day with 8-10 knots of wind. The boat sails nice!

[bwygirl]

Also, when tacking you need to keep the flow of water over the rudders and daggerboard. If you slam the wheel over that is very disruptive to the flow over the rudders, ease into it and finish all the way over. The sail should follow this ease, I like to backwind it just a little to help the bow around. But you don't need to do that when it is windy. The one thing beginners do is they don't tack all the way, they stop the tack way too soon and then find they are in irons. Teach them to make big tacks, you will find they are making smaller tacks then they think. Also, a bigger tack will keep the sail fuller and get the boat moving and then you sheet in tighter and go higher to wind when the power is on the sail.

[Herschel]

I have spent numerous hours introducing sailing to my family and friends on my 26X. It is interesting to them, and they seem to enjoy it, even taking the helm for awhile. But none have caught the "bug" to really learn to sail from "rides" on the bigger boat. In my training with U.S. Sailing to get my instructor certification, I was taught to get your student at the helm of his, or her, little boat as soon as you can get them taught and prepped for that experience. It is in handling their own little craft, making the decisions about steering and point of sail, tacking or jibing, remembering all the myriad of details (or forgetting them) that bring the joy and challenge home to them. Those that have the nature and interest to keep going will, those that do not, will chalk it off as an interesting experience and ask,"what's next". I use the boats I have at hand: '57 O'Day Sprite, Snark of unknown lineage (with amas), and an Achilles LT-4 inflatable dinghy with a sail kit. My students seem to prefer, initially, the stability of the Achilles and the Snark with amas, and their simple lateen sail rig. Actually, the amas can be sued as "training wheels" on pretty much any small boat. https://www.sailboatstogo.com/catalog/product/8009 . Of course, everyone is different, but I find some of the kids I teach are so accustomed to the virtual world that getting out in the real world is a little intimidating, so the amas help bridge that "courage gap".

[NiceAft]

Herschel said:

I find some of the kids I teach are so accustomed to the virtual world that getting out in the real world is a little intimidating

What an interesting, and sad observation. Just to be clear, I don't question it. It's just disheartening. As to the starting sailing lessons in a dinghy size boat, it helped me.

I bought a Howmar Boats Phantom Sailboat in 1979. It was my yacht for twenty-six years. As with any craft that size (14 feet), one developes quick reactions to sudden instabilities. Also great abs from all of the hiking out. When I got the in 2005, those years of reacting to sudden heeling payed off.

Ray

[sailboatmike]

Im of the opposite opinion Boat, agreed the M and the X are not the easiest boats to sail and require a deal of sailing knowledge to get to behave and sail well, however if they can learn to sail a boat that has some challenging behaviours then sailing a more traditional boat will be easy.

A lots of the bad reviews of the sailing ability of the X and M come from sailors that try to sail them like a more traditional boat and of course that just doesnt work until you get some wind in the sails, as I always say their lack of ability to see what the boat is doing and adjust their style to match the boat hardly makes the boat bad, it makes them poor sailors.

Learning about things like falling off the wind slightly before tacking and being prepared to backwind the jib if you start stalling out in the tack are great skills to learn early as these are mistakes beginners often make as they generally sail in lighter winds until they get their sea legs.

In a big trailer boat like a Mac they feel safe and her ability to handle some of the rough stuff with absolute aplomb just build confidence and of course the big motor on the back gives peace of mind if it blows up and you feel you need to make a run for it.

I have had my Mac out in seas that I wouldnt consider taking a traditional boat out in and it only ever builds confidence in her abilities

[BOAT]

I know a lot of sailors, in my family in particular. My brother just sailed a 56 foot boat from Istanbul to Tel Aviv because the owner (a friend of his) did not feel confident making the trip himself and wanted more experienced hands on the helm. I used to get "hired out" by my dad or brothers all the time when I was a teen. Their rich friends needed someone to crew their boat and they wanted to entertain guests but were not confident enough to run their own boats with guests on-board. Very common - rich people often hire help if they are taking on passengers, and I was hired at least 15 or 29 times in my teens to sail all kinds of various sailboats - most of them over 50 feet. I still occasionally get asked to help someone and nowadays I say: "really? I'm getting a bit too old for that." My brother will never grow up.

Let me tell you - if you already know how to sail, the easiest boat in the world to sail is a 50 foot sailboat. They go where you point them, they don't heel much, and everything happens in slow motion to guys like you and me.

It's another bad place to teach a person to sail.

In my opinion, the best way to learn to sail is in a small two sail sloop boat with a tiller - like a Lido or a j/22. Other good learning boats are the Hunter 15 (in fact I recommend most of the Hunter boats over other boats for inexperienced sailors or sailors that are afraid of the open ocean.)

The Flying Scot is a very nice learning boat that is also fast and reminds me of my own boat I owned as a child - I had a German Bootsbau Koralle sloop when I was 9 years old, but you can't get those anymore.

At the top of my list would be the Catalina Expo 16.5 if you can afford it for the kids because it has a sloop rig available and you can run it on the main only pretty well. Lots of people start their kids on a sailfish or some other boat with only one sail and then your stuck with that boat when it's time to learn the jib. Just start with a sloop and introduce the jib to the kids later. I started in a sabot when I was 7 and going from that to a sloop was hard to me.

That is the best way to learn to sail - the MAC is NOT the best way to learn to sail - it's a way, but not the best.

Answering the original post - if you must learn on a MAC boat the X is better to learn on than the M.

[Doug W]

I learned to sail on our M... and continue to learn more every year. Learning to deal with some of it's challenges was great experience so when a friend with a new-to-him cutter rigged Hunter 37 asked my wife and I to take his family and guests out for a sail while he was on a trip, we did! It was so easy to sail compared to our little boat and we pushed it pretty hard!

Now I did end up with a Captain Ron docking story out of it during a crowded holiday weekend in the marina...but that is a story for another time-- other than saying that tons of people onboard and on the dock came up to me exclaiming what a great sailor I am... ha ha.. in reality, I found while docking that reverse gear doesn't always engage. That docking maneuver was awesome (but by sheer luck... because I nearly shat myself!!!)

Doug

[Infoformacgregor]

Understand, but still looking for opinions. Is there much difference regards stability of 26x vs 26M. Again, I have been told the M was more "tippy", less stable platform. This question with an eye for younger generation on board as well as older generation on board. Does anyone have the experience of comparing the X and M in this regard?