D vs X or M heeling

[bobflshmn]

My wife and I are considering moving from our D to an X or M for the added interior room. A secondary concern for my wife is the hope that the X or M would heel less than the D. Any thought from those who know the comparison?
Thanks

[Cougar]

Hi Bob,

I doubt it will make much difference. I have an and I see a number of D's and C's sailing around in the area. They are not heeling more or less than we are. With all water ballast boats the high center of gravity is virtually identical, causing our boats to heel more than traditional keelboats. That said, according to my wife the boat can't heel enough. It gives her a sense of speed. And she frequently chooses to sit in the leeward side of the cockpit, more sheltered from the wind.

[NiceAft]

You might try adjusting sail possitions to lessen the heel.

The most efficient, comfortable rides are at 10-15 degrees heeling. You never said what was too much heel. Also, a water ballasted boat will initially heel quicker than a keel boat.

Ray

[Tomfoolery]

Also, a water ballasted boat will initially heel quicker than a keel boat.

This is what I hear a lot. The X heels readily to about 10 degrees or so, and stiffens up fast at around 15 degrees. It's where the boat just likes to be.

How the C compares to the nearly flat-bottomed X (and less flat M) I couldn't say, but I would assume it's different some how, as it's a regular displacement hull rather than a planing hull. Just a guess, but from the shape of the C hull, I would think the tender-to-stiff transition is much less pronounced, and is more like a keel boat. But that's just a guess.

[bobflshmn]

Thanks all, I was afraid of the water ballast being consistent. Read about a Catalina 25 the other day with water ballast and had the same report. My wife is goo to about 10 degrees, 15 after a few hours. I use the roller furler to reef most trips unless wind is poor. Have not reefed the main yet, usually just let it out as far as I can with out it flapping.

Unfortunately we may be headed down the path of something much larger with a fixed keel. The idea of not having a mobile boat though is very unappealing to me. We are also considering a Seaward 25 which does have a solid keel, combined with water ballast. Still mobile, lots of room, and not to bad on a trailer launch.

[Wind Chime]

I would tend to agree with TomFoolery,

... and add - I think that both the Classic models S&D are "Displacement Hulls" (like true sailboat hulls), verses the model X&M which are "Sport Hulls". All are water ballast, but the shape of the hull makes a difference in heel and speed.

In general, I would think that the smooth curve of the "true displacement" hull of the S/D would heal sooner and farther faster (but smoother) because of the more wine-glass shape of the hull, while the "Sport Hull" of the X/M is more "Flat Bottom" (dingy type) and will take a little more energy to start to heel and also harden faster. (the curve of the sport hull is not as smooth a transition as a displacement hull)

For this reason; the Displacement Hull Classics (S&D) sail better/faster than the Sport Hulls (X&M), the PHRF handicap ratings reflect the better performance.

A Fluid Mechanic can answer this better, but I think it goes something this;
- with a displacement hull: it does not matter how much power you put behind the boat it will not go faster because it can not get out of its hole (think of a displacement hull tug)
- with a sport hull: the flat stern creates water turbulence at the stern which allows the hull to get out of its hole and the more power you add the faster you go (like a runabout)

[Tomfoolery]

- with a displacement hull: it does not matter how much power you put behind the boat it will not go faster because it can not get out of its hole (think of a displacement hull tug)

This is the best illustration I've seen of a displacement hull 'stuck' in the hole it's made in the water when it's near hull speed.

[bobflshmn]

I am familiar with the 2 types of hulls, used to know the math to calculate max speed based on hull length. Speed for us is not important, comfort on the water while sailing and at the dock is our primary need.

We heel fast, but smooth. Subtle changes in sail, wind speed, or steering direction have an immediate input on degree of heel. The constant variation I believe is part of what the 1st mate has problems with. The boat does sail very well, and between 15 to 25 degrees with some speed seems more stable to me. Oddly front to back movement does not bother her at all.

We are looking to upgrade next spring so plenty of time to research. Thanks all.

[Wind Chime]

I believe that calculation is the square root of the length of the waterline times 1.34

I think it's common for most people to feel more threatened by sideways movement port to starboard versus bow to stern.

In a sport-hull like the X and M anything over 20° heal and you're just wetting more fibreglass and slowing you down, and our light boats need constant main sheet tending in the wind gusts if you want the angle of heel consistent. Twisting off the main does help to certain degree.

[Don T]

Hello,
AFAIK:
The D model has a long low ballast tank so more mass goes off center for any degree of heel at the cost of standing headroom. It should be heeling less (and probably faster) for any given wind speed.
The X has all water ballast with taller wider tanks fore and aft. Less mass / degree of heel goes off center than the D model but I like the standing headroom so that's what I bought. It gets a little boost from form stability (11* V)
The M has water tanks most like the X boat but also has lead around the dagger board encased in epoxy for stability when empty and a slightly firmer heel to balance for the increased V (18*) of the hull.

I hope my memory is serving me well, it's been a while.

[vizwhiz]

If you want trailerable, and not likely to heel much, you might look at a used Telstar 28 trimaran. If I didn't have a Mac, that would be the boat. Might still be my next boat anyway.
A little pricier than a used X or M, but they hold value well. Not sure what your price point is...

[bobflshmn]

Had never heard of the Telstar. Nice boat but would be to small interior and the exterior cockpit is also to small for us.

[sailboatmike]

I find the X heel feels greater than it is due to the high freeboard, but on the other hand once heeled at around 15 degrees pretty much feels like its on rails as the hull chine and ballast do their stuff, of course you need to play the sheets through the gusts but thats just good sailing practice anyway for keeping the boat momentum going.

Now she is used to it my partner likes more heel than I do, I can honestly say I have never felt like she is going to tip over and we normally sail at less heel than those around us but that may be me playing the main sheet and keeping us upright and the momentum going

[bobflshmn]

Thanks Mike, this is helpful.

[Highlander]

U can tell the wife not to wear high heels on the boat & she,ll be less of a heel !!

no offence , just jokin around
could,nt help myself
J