Main Sail Flogging

[Neo]

I'd also love a traveller, but in time.. in time...

Perfect. This brings me to the question "Is a wider (longer) traveller better?"
I've noticed other yachts sailing with the boom extended way off the side. The boom on my can only swing so far before the Main Sheet rests on a stanchion or the safely lines..... Or am I doing something wrong ... Or has my Boom Bail been fitted in the wrong place?

Also, I don't fully understand the the use of the Vang. When I look at the gooseneck it's not designed to allow the boom to move closer to the deck and there's only a small amount of slack/play in that direction. So I guess the Vang puts a small amount of tension on the sail (at that point) which stops the boom juddering up and down, but is that it?.... Please explain if I'm missing something here?

[sailboatmike]

The traveler is used to set the angle of the sail to the wind and if you need to have the boom out so far that the traveller is full to the Lee side and the main sheet is hitting the stanchion / life lines it may be time to reef rather than deflect the wind.

The vang is used to hold the boom down and stop the sail getting a belly, having the vang on hard depowers the boat by making the sail tighter and thus deflecting the wind

[Neo]

Thats great information Mike.

Just watched this YouTube Vid https://goo.gl/RBhw5N on Gybe Control.... Although this on a much bigger cruising yacht the principal of a "Preventer" makes a lot of sens to me. He also covers easing the Mainsheet so the Main is just off the shrouds, as you say Mike

[kadet]

When I look at the gooseneck it's not designed to allow the boom to move closer to the deck

It better because that's part of it's function to let the boom pivot up and down port and starboard there should be two bolts on the gooseneck a horizontal and a vertical.

Something like this.

[Neo]

Well yes it does but the boom (on that pivot point) is also being pulled down by the Mainsheet. I can see that the Vang would take up the small amount of slack (in the pivot), but assuming the boom is not bending, it won't be much more than the Mainsheet ... does the Vang really make much of a difference on the Main? .... Especially on a blown-out Main like mine
I guess I'd have to see this for myself to appreciated it .... I didn't even look at it last Tuesday ... too busy just surviving

[sailboatmike]

Sailing and sail trim are a funny thing, so many little things that make that little difference but add all the little bits together and they make a real difference.

I certainly dont stress about getting everything tweaked to the inth degree, gee half the time if the boat is moving in the right direction Im more than happy, as they say sailing is about the trip not always the destination, but its all good stuff to know in case you ever need it.

I have crewed on racing boats and it really isnt fun, always up and down adjusting something or preparing for the next tack or gybe, bring this line on, let that line off a bit, after a few hours its just more hard work that enjoyable fun.

Relax, enjoy the experience, listen, learn, try things, take on board what works for you, become one with the boat, water and the environment, it dont get much better

[Neo]

Relax, enjoy the experience, listen, learn, try things, take on board what works for you, become one with the boat, water and the environment, it dont get much better

Absolutely, thanks Mike

[Tomfoolery]

Well yes it does but the boom (on that pivot point) is also being pulled down by the Mainsheet. I can see that the Vang would take up the small amount of slack (in the pivot), but assuming the boom is not bending, it won't be much more than the Mainsheet ... does the Vang really make much of a difference on the Main? .... Especially on a blown-out Main like mine

The main sheet has two force components (well, three, but the third isn't important); one is horizontal and perpendicular to the boom, and the other is vertical, also perpendicular to the boom. When sheeted-in tight, the blocks are close to each other, and the system pulls down (hard). But when you sheet it way out, there's much more horizontal component than vertical, and when way out like that, the tension is usually pretty low, so a low sheet system force with a small vertical component makes for a very small vertical force. So the boom can lift relatively easily and really bag out the sail. Or pump up and down in waves, even to the point of going slack, then banging tight again.

That's one place where the boom vang is useful, as it has two force components, but only one really does anything; the down force component (the other is to compress the boom, but that doesn't matter). So using the vang can increase the downward moment on the boom (tendency to rotate the boom downward) when the main sheet isn't supplying enough of that component itself. Either sailing downwind, where the boom keeps moving around a lot, or other points of sail where you want/need more down component than the main sheet is providing on its own.

But you can sail just fine without it. And you should. Then add some to see what it does under different conditions and points of sail.

And if you run out of main sheet, you can always move the lower block to a stanchion. I do that, and use a preventer, when sailing DDW or close to it, and need the main out as far as it will go.

[Neo]

I had a feeling that if I mentioned the word "Pivot" you'd respond Tom
Ok I'm seeing the sens in this now so thanks for that. And moving the mainsheet to stanchion (with a Preventer) is a great tip too

It's all coming together now .... Can't wait to get out on the water to try this stuff .... Opps I still need to get my Main repaired

[kadet]

I had a feeling that if I mentioned the word "Pivot" you'd respond Tom
Ok I'm seeing the sens in this now so thanks for that. And moving the mainsheet to stanchion (with a Preventer) is a great tip too

It's all coming together now .... Can't wait to get out on the water to try this stuff .... Opps I still need to get my Main repaired

Tom has an you have an , :macx:s mains are sheeted to the steering pedestal you don't need to move the main sheet block as your has a traveller just ease it out you will never run out of main sheet before you chafe the main on the spreaders

Please remember not everything that works on a works on a they are similar but different.

[Neo]

Understood Kadet .... Thanks for that pointer

[Signaleer]

Ok, I'm back... generally agree with most things said here... but Neo, let me just reflect a few things here that may help... or may highlight some things to discuss.

So, here is how I think about ...

There are components that control sail shape: Cunningham (or downhaul which is different and we don't have), Outhaul, backstay, and boom vang.
There are components that are used to modify the sail with respect to the angle of incidence, or sail control: Mainsheet, Traveller, (and yes, also vang to a degree)

Am I missing something? I may be...

Although there can be some debate that the main-sheet provides vertical control, this is only at or never close-hauled and honestly, I don't think think the main sheet should ever be considered a component of sail shaping. It is a component of sail control that is control of the boom port and starboard.

If I want to control the sail with a high amount of twist, I'll pull traveller to winward, ease boom vang, and all sheet to a midships. If I am in heavy wind, I'll hard vang, traveller to windward, and sheet as necessary.

On an X, if yours is like mine, you probably don't have a cunningham, and with a fixed boom, we don't have a downhaul (which actually moves the gooseneck up and down the boom like on my old Pearson 26). We have a fixed gooseneck. To introduce a shallow draft, we would use a cunningham (which I don't yet have on my main). To controll the draft of the mainsail we have two tools primarily: Main halyard and outhaul. Tight main halyard = shallow draft (heavy winds) ... loosen the outhaul, introduces deeper draft (light winds)

I may disagree with Kadet on a few points... I would not sail with out a vang if I could avoid it. Not having strict control of the shape of the mainsail is just ... well, sucks. boom rising and falling with less control. I don't know why one would sail like this. Yes, you can I suppose control to an extent the rise/fall of the boom the mainsheet a little, but certainly not adequately for .. well.. to each his own I suppose.

So, Neo, if that offers you some ways to think about things - great. If not, disregard. For me, sailing is about controlling the shape of the sail to the conditions (step 1) and then controlling that sail to my point of sail (step 2) - different tools for each thing.

Ed.

[kadet]

I may disagree with Kadet on a few points... I would not sail with out a vang if I could avoid it.

You are not disagreeing with me at all, I would not sail without my vang and boom kicker either and I never said to do so
Think you might be mixing me up with Tomfoolery back on page 2

[Signaleer]

I may disagree with Kadet on a few points... I would not sail with out a vang if I could avoid it.

You are not disagreeing with me at all, I would not sail without my vang and boom kicker either and I never said to do so
Think you might be mixing me up with Tomfoolery back on page 2

.... #coorslights Sorry

[kadet]

.... #coorslights Sorry

Sure sure, American beer doesn't have enough kick to make a blowfly drunk